A confession: When someone says something that rubs me the wrong way, I'll engage them in a conversation that starts out with "I think you're mistaken for the following reasons (1) (2) (3). What was your thought process for getting here?" A useful conversation can come out of this. It used to quite often. There are plenty of opinions around here, and most of the old-school crew has a pretty good idea about how to come across with a differing opinion such that someone's either going to change their mind or at the very least, broaden their horizon a little. If that conversation wasn't useful, the second time I see the same person rubbing me the wrong way, the conversation is "yeah, you're definitely wrong. You didn't consider (4) (5) or (6). Now that I've presented them to you, what do you think?" This breaks things one way or the other. Either they've made me think, I've made them think, or we both know the other person isn't a thinker. Fine by me. Their opinion of me doesn't much matter. Sometimes they'll light up a post about what a big fucking meanie I am. That's fine. That means they're going to flame out and go away soon. Problem solved. Lately, however, the response to the first discussion is "HOW DARE YOU BRING UP REASONS." Fuck it. It's no longer worth my time to put up a defense. So you end up with an environment toxic to discussion and the only people left are the ones who just wanted to speak into the void for more than 140 characters.
You're right. One hundred percent. And it should piss you off to no end. But isn't it worth fighting for a something that has a chance of hope? We both know what Hubski is capable of, and frankly, I'm sick of running from site to site trying to maintain what's been great about being here, I'm at the point where this is where I stick my flag in the ground and yell at them, "no, fuck you, sit down, shut up, and learn" to educate the people rather than hop away to something else and hope it doesn't happen again. There are great fucking people here that I want to keep hearing from, and I'd much rather scare off 85% of new users by intimidating them with our mores and standards than have all the new users and losing yet another place for real discussion. Aren't you tired of having what you believe shit on again and again? You still moderate at reddit even, even though we both know what it's terrible. Why do you do that to yourself then? You must see something worth fighting for there, and if you can, you should definitely see something here too. So I'm all for seeing "HOW DARE YOU BRING UP REASONS" be followed by "sit down, shut up, and learn" backed by the whole community. It's not just a "fuck you". it's a stern "here are facts. I won't present them kindly as you're clearly a rabid manchild." Intimidation. The new users can come in scared and will fucking listen before speaking flippantly. The old guard here is on board with it, it just needs to be enforced in the comments, by whichever way each person who understands sees fit. Leaving won't solve it, because you know they'll follow you eventually, and I'm sure as fuck not giving up on the internet being would it could, because that's what's really happening by migrating. The worthwhile get quiet out of respect or some other misanthropic exhaustion and they lose. I'm so exhausted by fighting it, but it's a fuckload better of an option than reinforcing the bad behavior.
It's taken me four days for things to slow down enough to respond, but know that I've been meaning to respond. This is actually a function: IF: something has a chance of hope THEN: isn't it worth fighting for? It's a big "if" and it's a big "then" on purpose because "chance of hope" is a hard thing to judge. Honestly, I gave up on greater Reddit the day Jedberg left. Everything I have there now is legacy - I keep /r/favors running because I built it and there's nobility in there. I keep /r/foodforthought running because it's one of the last places to find articles that matter. I'm in /r/movies because I was heavily recruited, but stick around because they really mean it. It's heartening. Funny thing is most of the default subreddits exist to get tedious shit out of pics and askreddit. They were never worth fighting for. I know what Reddit is capable of, too. It could have been incredible. It isn't. And I fought that tide, yo. I fought it street to street. My wife got death threats because I demanded /r/skeptic be "skeptical." and I can tell you with no hesitation that there's only so much one person can do. Without a structure to back you up, you will get buried in bullshit at some point. The ants will strip the ox carcass. And at some point, you have to recognize that you're fighting tooth and claw for something you don't own, something that doesn't love you, and something that will not forget you when you're gone. And there are better things to do with your time.But isn't it worth fighting for a something that has a chance of hope?
I completely agree with you with scaring off new users if that's what it takes. The people being scared off by impressing the fact that discussion matters and that our standards are high are people that probably just want their 10 seconds of attention per comment anyway. I think trying to be proactive about it is a good way to start, and if it doesn't work then going for intimidation and so on and so forth (at least on my end). Pressing people to have a discussion is something we could all pitch at hand at making happen.