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comment by ecib
ecib  ·  4634 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Hallelujah lyrics meaning  ·  
This verse is specifically referencing the denial of Jesus by the apostle Peter right before the crucifixion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_Peter

She accuses him of talking the name in vain (a sin, this references one of the 10 Commandments), and his response that he doesn't even know the name she is referring to, places the protagonist in the same shoes as Peter, denying Christ right before his execution (another betrayal).

I guess the question is what does 'the name' refer to here? I interpret it this way. I feel like, as mentioned in the other posts, the man in this song views the man/woman union as a holy one in its ideal form (this is the 'Hallelujah'), and the woman does not see it this way. I get the sense in this verse that she accuses him of taking the name in vain, with the name being their love/relationship. I imagine he does this when it falls apart, and he curses it, but he says "So what if I did, really, what's it to you?" with the implication that she doesn't believe in that anyway. This framework is introduced in the very first verse "I heard there was a secret chord that David played and it pleased the Lord...but you don't really care for music do you?". Right at the outset, she is rejecting his world-view regarding the religious component of relationships.

The last line of this verse tells me that the carnal/spiritual duality of relationships both have a greater truth to the protagonist, either the 'holy' or the 'broken' Hallejulia. Both have the blaze of light (truth), but just a blaze, as each is incomplete without the other half.





JakobVirgil  ·  4634 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  
The idea that there is a carnal/spiritual duality is alien to Jewish thought it is a christian-greek pagan thing. Sex is not prohibited on the sabbath it is a mitzvah. Mr. Cohen is very Jewish http://youtu.be/4imJ7wWB9FU here he is giving the priestly blessing. I think Scotty Moorhead stumbled at the verse only understanding the sex part. As a Jew like Leonard I will have to differ on the Christian reference the word Hallelujah contains a name of the God of Israel.
    You say that I profane the name
The final syllable is the first two letters of the holy name YHVH. So the haredim could get all snotty and accuse our favorite Kohen of being impious for putting the name of God in a naughty song.
    no one even knows the name
The thing is that the pronunciation is not know at least traditionally.[ Yaweh is prolly the right one.]
    and if I did then whats it to ya,
coolest line ever
    there is a blaze of light in every word
straight out of the Zohar. [a book of jewish mystism]
    It doesn't matter which you heard The holy or the broken Hallelujah
here you could get christian if you wanted there is some parallel with peters vision of the net. but Cohen is still paraphrasing the Zohar. There is another more secret name of God that includes all 22 letter making every word contain a part of the name of God. It makes every utterance sacred even the screams of oh God during sex.

I think the song is akin to the two faces or a vase pictures. It is a song about lost love and sex and a song about God. the tradition is very old remember Shlomo wrote

    I have taken off my robe - must I put it on again? I have washed my feet - must I soil them again? My lover thrust his hand through the latch-opening; my heart began to pound for him. I arose to open for my lover, and my hands dripped with myrrh., on the handles of the lock.
And that is about God right? it is in the bible. :)
ecib  ·  4634 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Very interesting. I will say though, that though Choen is Jewish, he Does not shy away from singing about Christian themes, specifically referencing Jesus. "and Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water, and he spent a long time watching from his lonely wooden tower. And when he knew for certain only drowning men could see him, he said 'all men will be sailors then until the sea shall free them'" One of the coolest lines ever, and talkes specifically about he miracle of Jesus walking on the water, and then the crucifixion and how only when men are in peril and need it most are they most open to him, so let men be in peril on Earth in order to be freed when finding Jesus. I think in the end, there is probably just a big mishmash of new and old testament infuence running throughout all of his poetry.
JakobVirgil  ·  4634 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Sure Jesus is referenced but the idea of an old and new testament is alien. He is definitely not a Bob Dylan who converts back and forth.

that is a great song.

ecib  ·  4633 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Hmm. Isn't the idea of salvation through Christ (which Cohenwrites and sings about) completely absent in Jewish Dogma? I'm not suggesting he personally subscribed to the idea, just that he borrowed from both dogmas in his writing (not to mention Eastern dogma increasingly in his later years). I'm not familiar enough with Jewish scripture to tease out the overlap with the Biblical references.

I've been meaning to read the Jewish holy books for years, as well as the Quran. I can never seem to find the time, and they arent exactly page-turners :)

As an aside, in the song, when he sings about the Holy Ghost moving within them, I take this as the classic triumvirate of God-Jesus-holy Ghost, aka the Holy Trinity from the Bible. Does Jewish Dogma recognize that, or is that Christian-specific?

JakobVirgil  ·  4633 days ago  ·  link  ·  
he borrows but doesn't he get it wrong?
ecib  ·  4633 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Like how? I'm not sure he gets anything wrong, Christian, Jewish, or Eastern. I've always been of the opinion that his poetry is not instructive or descriptive when it comes to religious matters. On the contrary, religion informs his life and stories. He takes what he wants, bits and pieces here and there, but when we hear Leonard, we are hearing a voice where the poetry comes first, above all else, and he is never concerned about theistic accuracy as much as internal integrity.

But if you are more specific with a particular verse, I can definitely opine whether it seems to be in line with Christian dogma.

JakobVirgil  ·  4633 days ago  ·  link  ·  
I think we should analyse Suzanne next.

    Suzanne takes you down to her place near the river

    You can hear the boats go by

    You can spend the night beside her

    And you know that she's half crazy

    But that's why you want to be there

    And she feeds you tea and oranges

    That come all the way from China

    And just when you mean to tell her

    That you have no love to give her

    Then she gets you on her wavelength

    And she lets the river answer

    That you've always been her lover

    And you want to travel with her

    And you want to travel blind

    And you know that she will trust you

    For you've touched her perfect body with your mind.

    And Jesus was a sailor

    When he walked upon the water

    And he spent a long time watching

    From his lonely wooden tower

    And when he knew for certain

    Only drowning men could see him

    He said "All men will be sailors then

    Until the sea shall free them"

    But he himself was broken

    Long before the sky would open

    Forsaken, almost human

    He sank beneath your wisdom like a stone

    And you want to travel with him

    And you want to travel blind

    And you think maybe you'll trust him

    For he's touched your perfect body with his mind.

    Now Suzanne takes your hand

    And she leads you to the river

    She is wearing rags and feathers

    From Salvation Army counters

    And the sun pours down like honey

    On our lady of the harbour

    And she shows you where to look

    Among the garbage and the flowers

    There are heroes in the seaweed

    There are children in the morning

    They are leaning out for love

    And they will lean that way forever

    While Suzanne holds the mirror

    And you want to travel with her

    And you want to travel blind

    And you know that you can trust her

    For she's touched your perfect body with her mind.

thenewgreen  ·  4634 days ago  ·  link  ·  
    The idea that there is a carnal/spiritual duality is alien to Jewish thought it is a christian-greek pagan thing
If this is the case, then nobody told my high school girlfriend. I wonder why "Scotty Moorhead" chose to leave out the lyrics you mention? While they are religious in context, they are still subjective enough to be sung even by a "mystery white boy".

Great synopsis.

JakobVirgil  ·  4634 days ago  ·  link  ·  
while there is not a carnal/spiritual conflict there is a jew/gentile one.