comment by JakobVirgil

a thoughtful web.

Good ideas and conversation. No ads, no tracking. Login or Take a Tour!

JakobVirgil · 4605 days ago · link · · parent · post: Hallelujah lyrics meaning ·

The idea that there is a carnal/spiritual duality is alien to Jewish thought it is a christian-greek pagan thing. Sex is not prohibited on the sabbath it is a mitzvah. Mr. Cohen is very Jewish http://youtu.be/4imJ7wWB9FU here he is giving the priestly blessing. I think Scotty Moorhead stumbled at the verse only understanding the sex part. As a Jew like Leonard I will have to differ on the Christian reference the word Hallelujah contains a name of the God of Israel.

You say that I profane the name The final syllable is the first two letters of the holy name YHVH. So the haredim could get all snotty and accuse our favorite Kohen of being impious for putting the name of God in a naughty song.

no one even knows the name The thing is that the pronunciation is not know at least traditionally.[ Yaweh is prolly the right one.]

and if I did then whats it to ya, coolest line ever

there is a blaze of light in every word straight out of the Zohar. [a book of jewish mystism]

It doesn't matter which you heard The holy or the broken Hallelujah here you could get christian if you wanted there is some parallel with peters vision of the net. but Cohen is still paraphrasing the Zohar. There is another more secret name of God that includes all 22 letter making every word contain a part of the name of God. It makes every utterance sacred even the screams of oh God during sex.

I think the song is akin to the two faces or a vase pictures. It is a song about lost love and sex and a song about God. the tradition is very old remember Shlomo wrote

I have taken off my robe - must I put it on again? I have washed my feet - must I soil them again? My lover thrust his hand through the latch-opening; my heart began to pound for him. I arose to open for my lover, and my hands dripped with myrrh., on the handles of the lock. And that is about God right? it is in the bible. :)

markup tips · 0

ecib · 4605 days ago · link ·

Very interesting. I will say though, that though Choen is Jewish, he Does not shy away from singing about Christian themes, specifically referencing Jesus. "and Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water, and he spent a long time watching from his lonely wooden tower. And when he knew for certain only drowning men could see him, he said 'all men will be sailors then until the sea shall free them'" One of the coolest lines ever, and talkes specifically about he miracle of Jesus walking on the water, and then the crucifixion and how only when men are in peril and need it most are they most open to him, so let men be in peril on Earth in order to be freed when finding Jesus. I think in the end, there is probably just a big mishmash of new and old testament infuence running throughout all of his poetry.

+discuss+discuss

–

JakobVirgil · 4605 days ago · link ·

Sure Jesus is referenced but the idea of an old and new testament is alien. He is definitely not a Bob Dylan who converts back and forth.

that is a great song.

+discuss+discuss

–

ecib · 4604 days ago · link ·

Hmm. Isn't the idea of salvation through Christ (which Cohenwrites and sings about) completely absent in Jewish Dogma? I'm not suggesting he personally subscribed to the idea, just that he borrowed from both dogmas in his writing (not to mention Eastern dogma increasingly in his later years). I'm not familiar enough with Jewish scripture to tease out the overlap with the Biblical references.

I've been meaning to read the Jewish holy books for years, as well as the Quran. I can never seem to find the time, and they arent exactly page-turners :)

As an aside, in the song, when he sings about the Holy Ghost moving within them, I take this as the classic triumvirate of God-Jesus-holy Ghost, aka the Holy Trinity from the Bible. Does Jewish Dogma recognize that, or is that Christian-specific?

+discuss+discuss

–

JakobVirgil · 4604 days ago · link ·

he borrows but doesn't he get it wrong?

+discuss+discuss

–

ecib · 4604 days ago · link ·

Like how? I'm not sure he gets anything wrong, Christian, Jewish, or Eastern. I've always been of the opinion that his poetry is not instructive or descriptive when it comes to religious matters. On the contrary, religion informs his life and stories. He takes what he wants, bits and pieces here and there, but when we hear Leonard, we are hearing a voice where the poetry comes first, above all else, and he is never concerned about theistic accuracy as much as internal integrity.

But if you are more specific with a particular verse, I can definitely opine whether it seems to be in line with Christian dogma.

+discuss+discuss

–

JakobVirgil · 4604 days ago · link ·

I think we should analyse Suzanne next.

You can hear the boats go by

You can spend the night beside her

And you know that she's half crazy

But that's why you want to be there

And she feeds you tea and oranges

That come all the way from China

And just when you mean to tell her

That you have no love to give her

Then she gets you on her wavelength

And she lets the river answer

That you've always been her lover

And you want to travel with her

And you want to travel blind

And you know that she will trust you

For you've touched her perfect body with your mind.

And Jesus was a sailor

When he walked upon the water

And he spent a long time watching

From his lonely wooden tower

And when he knew for certain

Only drowning men could see him

He said "All men will be sailors then

Until the sea shall free them"

But he himself was broken

Long before the sky would open

Forsaken, almost human

He sank beneath your wisdom like a stone

And you want to travel with him

And you want to travel blind

And you think maybe you'll trust him

For he's touched your perfect body with his mind.

Now Suzanne takes your hand

And she leads you to the river

She is wearing rags and feathers

From Salvation Army counters

And the sun pours down like honey

On our lady of the harbour

And she shows you where to look

Among the garbage and the flowers

There are heroes in the seaweed

There are children in the morning

They are leaning out for love

And they will lean that way forever

While Suzanne holds the mirror

And you want to travel with her

And you want to travel blind

And you know that you can trust her

For she's touched your perfect body with her mind.

+discuss+discuss

thenewgreen · 4605 days ago · link ·

The idea that there is a carnal/spiritual duality is alien to Jewish thought it is a christian-greek pagan thing If this is the case, then nobody told my high school girlfriend. I wonder why "Scotty Moorhead" chose to leave out the lyrics you mention? While they are religious in context, they are still subjective enough to be sung even by a "mystery white boy".

Great synopsis.

+discuss+discuss

–

JakobVirgil · 4605 days ago · link ·

while there is not a carnal/spiritual conflict there is a jew/gentile one.