I find it interesting, because your arguments are strong (though I don't necessarily agree with them), and yet I feel like nothing you say has anything to do with losing respect for gamers. minor edit: as a side note, I feel like calling myself a "gamer" is weird. I think if I were still in middle/high school, I would define myself as such. But as I have grown older, I've gained all sorts of interesting passions. I don't think playing videogames defines me, and I sort of cringe at that concept.
Sorry I'm late, I just read all this. (Go hubski newsletter!) So, I just caught myself thinking the following: "some video games are art, but some are not." Now, on the surface that sounds reasonable. Shadow of the Colossus or Myst might qualify, GTA V doesn't. But then I tried substituting "some music is art, but some is not"; "some movies are art, but some are not"; .... Those make much less sense in my opinion, especially music -- you can't judge some music art and some not (can you? ha!). So where does that leave us? Because I firmly believe that some video games are beautiful works of art, but most just aren't. Out of time to write anymore unfortunately, very unpolished thoughts. Will ruminate more while driving. EDIT: eightbitsamurai
Art is in the eye of the beholder, also. I believe there are, absolutely, moments of art in the GTA games; mostly in the dialogue and cut-scenes, but here's a better example: if you've played through GTA:SA, there's a point in the game (which is set in the 1990's) in which the city erupts in rioting. THAT was some A-1 art there, IMHO. Maybe not beauty, but definitely art; it was a jaw-dropping history lesson, extremely well executed and with a visceral emotional punch, if you are old enough to remember this :Shadow of the Colossus or Myst might qualify, GTA V doesn't.
I've heard the 'cut scenes are art' argument, for GTA and others -- maybe, but is that proof that video games are art or that you can embed little movies into video games? Never seen the specific bit about the riots, I've only played GTA like four times. I know that art is in the eye of the beholder (within reason), so why do I have the kneejerk reaction that some video games are art and some aren't, which I don't have with music/paintings/etc?
I suspect it's simply the newness of the medium. Back in the old days, I'll bet a lot of folks argued over whether those new-fangled moving-picture-shows could really be considered an art form - but few would doubt it now (in spite of the prevalence of crap in the medium, to this day). Whatever it is, I believe it's art, if it can stir your emotions - not very objective, I know. I remember clearly the first time I thought that way about a video game - it was in FF7, when Aeris dies. I was a little in awe, that a game could get under my skin like that. If anything can pull you in and mess with you emotionally like that, how can you say it's NOT an art form?
Mine was that business with the Wind Fish and Marin in Link's Awakening. Special place in my heart for that little world. I imagine you're probably right that I just can't wrap my head around the idea that a video game as -- sorry -- pointless and idiotic as GTA V is art because it's so new to me. I'll get over it.I remember clearly the first time I thought that way about a video game - it was in FF7, when Aeris dies. I was a little in awe, that a game could get under my skin like that.
I completely agree with you, actually. The more time gamers spend trying to validate the medium, the more difficult it will be to get others to do so. Books and Film escaped any stigma long ago, and shows like Breaking Bad are doing the same for Television. Games shouldn't have to validate themselves as an art-form, I don't think. I also like your edit. I think that's a good way of explaining it, and that helps my perception of the term a bit. Question: You say I always found the argument for games as art to lead in circles. It's a harder medium to define as an artform because it has so much going on within it, and one game can vary from another drastically - as opposed to films, which all have a basic structure, for the most part. I suppose my favorite example for what I think would be a game as art would be Journey - funny enough, those guys made Flower.gamers, critics and professionals alike push what are poor examples of video games as a medium
. What do you consider to be good examples? Stuff like what you mentioned in your first comment?