The lack of rebellion in the US is much like the lack of traction for modern bands. We no longer just look at what was popular for the last generation: we are constantly drowning in the knowledge that rebellions get crushed, a day in jail now ruins your life, and giant corporations own the government. Why fight the government when you'll just wind up with the same thing and a prison record? What's so great about a rebellion, anyway? It's as if the older generation is expecting the younger one to flip out as if on command. Why be predictable, when the entire problem is being so predictable that there is no hope for a future? Perhaps waiting out some important deaths is more useful than a crappy short game with Molotov cocktails. There is no way to teach the ultra-conservatives to see beyond their selfish desires nor to make them see the world inside the cell phone, so we just have to wait for them to go away. We have to raise money to get progressive laws, so we'll work to raise that money.
Nicely said :) One question, what if, in that time that the conservatives die out, another horrible party shows up? I am talking about Europe. Right wing populist parties are getting larger and larger here. In Germany, the "alternative for Germany" (AfD), which sounds harmless but it's a soft core nazi party that wants the German Mark back, wants to kick out immigrants (the whole shebang) got loads of votes last election. They took out the Pirates (net neutrality and privacy) and attracted many voters from the left party (Die Linke), which is scary to think about. The same is happening in Greece, Italy, France, Hungary... (Not to forget israel, but that's another story)
He raises an important point. Financially, its not worth it to rebel. Who will pay the bills? I can't have nice things if I am poor and struggling. We are simply too comfortable to rebel, even though we know that something should be done. We put too much faith into politicians that keep promising to solve this or that issue. And then, when their term ends and they didn't change anything we are not even surprised that nothing changed for the better. I can't rebel by myself. I can't afford to rebel.
I actually think its more fear than comfort. You're talking about a generation of kids raised to be passive in their response to transgressions and appeal to authority. When faith in authority disappears, like it has, the passive component remains.
Isn't it also fear of losing the comfort? Do you want to spend the night in jail or in a warm bed at home? Do you want that arrest to follow you for the rest of your life so you never get any job? Or do you rather want a happy, successful life with wife and children?
Yeah, but I say fear because it's the underlying emotion/behavior. Even with the following examples, fear responses. The people willing to confront things directly in spite of the consequences has always been low. History seems to show that you dont really get numbers approaching a majority unless people have already lost the things they can attach their fears to For the record, yes I have spent the night in jail.
Bread and circuses. I'm right there with you. I have a job, I can't just walk off to DC and camp out for a month, for a year. Even if I could, you can't, no one else can. People like to talk a big game, "Why don't we rebel!?" But at the end of the day, it always comes down to Bread and Circuses. You can keep 300,000,000 people on starvation wages, as long as they have job to go to and reality TV to come home to. That's the fundamental theory of Feudalism. America just forgot that for a little while. America also learned that Capitalism is better, even for the wealthy, than Feudalism. They're forgetting that. I have suspicions that, for the wealthy (who make the rules), Liberalism is a Pareto Optimum (or nearly), and Feudalism is a Nash Equilibrium. That is, Feudalism isn't the best solution, but it's the best solution for a single wealthy individual when they don't trust anyone else.We are simply too comfortable to rebel
I can't afford to rebel.
I doubt this, as millennial turnout is so low. I would say that they have little faith.We put too much faith into politicians that keep promising to solve this or that issue. And then, when their term ends and they didn't change anything we are not even surprised that nothing changed for the better.
It's an interesting discussion but a one-sided one. After all, isn't the catchphrase of the millennials "disruption?" And isn't disruption nothing more than a hybrid between co-option and rebellion? The author neglects to notice that the economy is effectively running on young, smart kids who come up with a way to put their parents out of business. That's a new thing. That isn't how it used to be done. Ever since Generation X showed their parents that you could not only make money with computers, you could make millions, it's just sort of expected that clever 20-somethings are doing something you don't understand that you suspect might change your life without you even knowing how it happened. Nobody who reads Esquire really understands what WhatsApp is. The only reason they understand Skype is because the video conferencing systems they saw once when they were interns have been replaced by something free. They're starting to realize that taxi cabs may be a memory akin to pay phones in ten years. But they're somehow convinced that kids aren't "rebelling" anymore. I think it's more likely that they're not standing in the crosshairs anymore. The stakes are definitely higher and the payoffs are definitely lower. End result? Change of plan. I'll have to read that damn book, though. And I just finished It's Complicated, too. dammit.
The millennials are not going to rock the boat because they still have reason to hope that their efforts will be rewarded. I would guess that their kids will be the ones to rebel, because at that point, there won't be any denying the reality of the situation.
Absolutely. You don't have to overthrow the system to effect change. There are endless ways to rebel. For example: students across the country boycott college athletic events at all colleges that saw a tuition increase that year. Surround the White House demanding a student debt jubilee. Rebellion can mean getting unreasonable in one specific and inconvenient way.
I have yet to see that proven. kb and I have discussed this kind of thing before, and the people who make changes thumb their nose at democracy and 'the system' and do what they want anyway. Think about how we (Using the term broadly) would be viewed if we did those things? We don't have the luxury of anything approaching fair reporting ANYWHERE. I would gladly give my life if it meant a meaningful change in the lives of my peers. If it meant that my blood brothers could get a job that would pay them a living wage without sinking up to their eyeballs in debt. I would do it in a heartbeat (Partially because I devalue my own life so much) but I can't make that sacrifice. The revolution doesn't want my blood, it wants my tweets, and facebook posts, and solidarity in being fucked together.You don't have to overthrow the system to effect change.
I amend my statement. I have yet to see that proven in a modern context. Maybe it's just egoism, but I believe that the amount of information available about individuals, and the amount of complete garbage that has to be sorted through to get to meaningful information, has caused a fundamental shift in our society, making rebellion/revolution nearly impossible.
IMHO it's just your mindset. If anything, the state of media is ripe for it. It doesn't take but a second to tell everyone in the US that university students started occupying their student centers instead of going to class. The Tiananmen protests of 89 weren't just limited to Tiananmen. They actually were mirrored at university campuses across China. That was when most Chinese didn't have home telephones. Would you join a protest of your peers if it looked like it had legs?
COLLEGE STUDENTS WHO KNOWINGLY AGREED TO LOANS DECIDE TO NOT PAY THE AMERICAN PEOPLE BACK! RADICAL LIBERAL STUDENT MOVEMENT THREATENS GOD-FEARING AMERICANS SOCIAL SECURITY BY REFUSING TO REPAY STUDENT LOANS Again, garbage is easier to produce than reasonable content. I'd start one if I thought I had a snowballs chance in hell. It doesn't take but a second to tell everyone in the US that university students started occupying their student centers instead of going to class.
Would you join a protest of your peers if it looked like it had legs?
Protests always face that kind of resistance. What matters is whether or not the populous is generally sympathetic or not. My guess is that most people understand that the cost of college is far too high, and that student debt is a huge problem. The millennials understand this, and their parents understand this. Companies that want to sell you stuff understand this.
Agreed. But its still a matter of spin. I know exactly how I would completely discredit such a movement nationally. Pick the most burnt-out, hippie looking kids I could, prop them up as an official student representative, preferably in their drug-rug across from or next to a guy in a suit, and ask them simple, baiting questions, get them to use words like socialism, instant target for national scorn and derision. One set of kids gets fed up with 'free speech zones' and spray paints an admin building, BOOM, insta-terrorist, might as well wheel the predator drones out of storage.Protests always face that kind of resistance. What matters is whether or not the populous is generally sympathetic or not.
Hell, I'll even go one step further and provide the delicious counter-narrative Find a few rich kids who took loans because they messed up somewhere on their scholarship process, put them in suits, and have them talk about how they had loans, but through their hard work they found an honest American desk job, found a girl to marry and are expecting their first child while paying off the last of their loans. Cue 'Star Spangled Banner' and rolling_american_flag.gif
Hell, I'll even go one step further and provide the delicious counter-narrative Find a few rich kids who took loans because they messed up somewhere on their scholarship process, put them in suits, and have them talk about how they had loans, but through their hard work they found an honest American desk job, found a girl to marry and are expecting their first child while paying off the last of their loans. Cue 'Star Spangled Banner' and rolling_american_flag.gif
I disagree with this. At least in the case of my peer circle extending through co-workers, friends, family, acquaintances. It's more of a "we just dont care and would rather watch things unfold while complaining about it among ourselves because old white people are crazy."
Well, that's even more depressing. Old white people have been crazy for a long long time. But, I bet you all do care. The water just isn't hot enough. That being said, I am not claiming that my generation (either the tail-end of X, or gen Y) has any claim to rebellion, but things were pretty damn good for us. We could get out of a four-year degree, and have a new car, a home, and a seed of retirement savings within 5 years.
I don't particularly feel like rebelling against the system I'm in, because I know how to use it to my advantage. I mean, I will graduate without any student debt, I went to Hong Kong for €200, I did the calculations yesterday and for my whole adventure here in Canada i break even. Including food and rent. I know how to get where I want, I know how to get into the right groups of people. If everything goes according to my plan I'll be in China again next year at an organizations expense. I think part of it is that I'm just lucky. If I'd be $100k in debt it'd be an entirely different story, but I'm pretty happy with this system.
It's funny because like, being white in America, I unknowingly and uncontrollably use the existing racist political/"justice" system to my advantage (simply by existing and by looking the way I do) but I still think it's a disgrace, feel guilt over it, and wish the system was less fucked. I've said it here before and again: there are days I haven't been charged with crimes that could have waylaid my career and most things I care about, simply because I am a young white attractive female. If I'd been a young black male? Oh, honey. Bye job, hello charges. I've wondered if I should fuck myself over as protest against what I'm taking advantage of: you know, like if the police question me about something, be honest instead of avoid trouble. I've mostly concluded that's not the answer. But if in the future America's race problem is solved and maybe that means more charges and convictions for whites, potentially including me? I'm okay with that. I just think that just because something doesn't harm you doesn't mean that it's okay.I don't particularly feel like rebelling against the system I'm in, because I know how to use it to my advantage.
I'm sorry, but protests should never have been and never should be about making this not true for anyone. The issue isn't that white people are "privileged" in most cases, it's that white people are treated as neutral in the US. There are few stereotypes applied to you. You aren't treated as a criminal, and a police officer will judge you on your words. Truthful and honest works make you have a higher chance of success. If we break down those stereotypes, it does NOT result in a loss for white people. Never has, never will. Equality is a win for everyone. Unless perhaps in the rare case where it is your word against a black persons, but if you are the sort of person who wouldn't be horrified by the idea and lie to get out of a place like that, you deserve nothing more than a (metaphorical, although literal works too) knife in the back. Anyone protesting for us to jail more white people for smoking weed, to arrest more white people because black people are arrested too often, are fucking idiots. Secondly, a lot of ways our system works, welfare, etc, being changed to benefit minorities more will benefit white people also. Even if not as much, it will. Imagine we shift school funding to be federal and even-per-student instead of based on property taxes. Unless you are the sort of person who grew up in the rich districts of Chicago, had a school with a fancy pool, etc, your school probably isn't going to be worse off. If you are in one of those schools, it's probably likely that the money didn't really help you very much anyways (the first ten dollars matters a lot, the last ten gets spent on aquatic centers that don't really change lives) There is nothing to lose, and everything to gain.I've wondered if I should fuck myself over as protest against what I'm taking advantage of: you know, like if the police question me about something, be honest instead of avoid trouble.
Fuck off. I feel guilty for having gotten away with crimes I know black people wouldn't get away with. That's not about protesting that's about my lived experience demonstrating to me that because I'm not a young black male I haven't gotten in trouble for shit. I'm allowed to recognize that disparity and feel that it's wrong and feel guilty for having been let loose because there's an expectation that I'm not "trouble" because of the way I look. I've been in situations, talking to the cops and lying through my teeth, where a person of the same age but a different demographic would have been arrested and I've walked away scott free. It's stupid, by the way, if you think telling the cops the absolute truth is the way to handle them.
At no point did I ever, anywhere, say that white people should be prosecuted against more. But you know what? If a ton of black people repeatedly get ticketed for going 80mph in a 60 and a ton of white people repeatedly get off with warnings, i don't think the "equal" solution is suddenly letting everyone get away with speeding. I repeat, FUCK OFF, I DONT GIIVE A SHIT ABOUT YOUR SHIT.
Black people get ticketed more because a police officer is more likely to see less of them and subconsciously that leads to more tickets. Reducing that does not cause them to give more tickets overall, unless there is a quota going on or the reduction comes from a shift to viewing white people as criminal. I'm allowed to recognize that disparity and feel that it's wrong and feel guilty for having been let loose because there's an expectation that I'm not "trouble" because of the way I look. And that's fine, but that guilt should be driven towards bringing others up, not denouncing yourself and feeling like you have wronged somebody. Enjoy that you have something that everyone should have, and ensure that you are not abusing that privilege by claiming that black people are just inherently more criminal and that's why you get off, and by trying to extend that great good to everyone in society. You shouldn't feel guilty about this, you should feel enraged these basic rights of being treated by a human being based on your clothes, actions, etc, rather than race, do not belong to everyone. The real way is not speaking. However, I would guess cops would give you a speeding ticket should they see you lying on radar, and I would guess cops would have more chance if you are friendly and respectful with them. And I'm not the sort of person who fucks off. Sorry. The plauge is a bit harder to get rid of than that. You can always retreat under your blanket and mute me though. That's sure to promote thoughtful discussion!At no point did I ever, anywhere, say that white people should be prosecuted against more. But you know what? If a ton of black people repeatedly get ticketed for going 80mph in a 60 and a ton of white people repeatedly get off with warnings, i don't think the "equal" solution is suddenly letting everyone get away with speeding.
Fuck off. I feel guilty for having gotten away with crimes I know black people wouldn't get away with.
It's stupid, by the way, if you think telling the cops the absolute truth is the way to handle them.
Sorry buddy, I'm not here to have thoughtful discussions with everyone, just like if I were on okcupid I wouldn't be on it with the purpose of dating everyone. You and I ain't compatible - I'm under no obligation to speak to you or let you speak to me when I can control it. So yes, I will mute you, and gladly. Suck a bag of dicks and kick rocks.
Thoughtful discussion does not occur when you speak only to approved audiences. The only people you can't have real discussion with are trolls that only look to make others angry. Just as you are under no obligation to speak to me, I am under no obligation to keep silent for your sake. Goes both ways. Have a nice day.
I agree wholeheartedly. Reading my comment back I realize that a) I sound selfish and b) it might not be so relevant to the US situation as I'd thought and c) that I am probably that lucky (white) guy who gets away with it. To be honest, I just wanted to add to the discussion any way I could, because I think there is a whole lot wrong with education in all sorts of ways, both in Europe and in the US (although you guys have it way worse on the financial side of things). I feel the same about the Ferguson / racism issue that is at hand now, but I don't respond there because I know I have nothing meaningful to say.I just think that just because something doesn't harm you doesn't mean that it's okay.
Holy shit will you teach me your waysI mean, I will graduate without any student debt, I went to Hong Kong for €200, I did the calculations yesterday and for my whole adventure here in Canada i break even. Including food and rent. I know how to get where I want, I know how to get into the right groups of people. If everything goes according to my plan I'll be in China again next year at an organizations expense.
Step 1: Be efficient at what you study, so you have free time to do other things. In my case, I really enjoy the topics I study so learning goes easy. Step 2: Chase extracurriculars and connections in that free time. In my case, Honours College (which got me the cool trip to HK and Berlin), committees. Offering to help profs out. Get to know people through chasing cool stuff that requires some work. 95% of the people just aren't willing to put effort in, and most of the stuff you can do alongside regular studies are a) worth it, b) gets you to meet people and c) is fun most of the time. Step 3: Use these connections / events as reasons why organizations should give you money. It looks really good if your application has 2 recommendations from professors attached. Got €1600 that way for going to Canada. Step 4: Profi- eh, break even. :)
Yeah I'm mainly talking about the Dutch system I'm in. To what degree it also applies to the US is not up to me to judge. What I do think is that there are a lot of people who don't even try to make the best of their possibilities while they're studying. The financial support and cool opportunities weren't there for the taking, I had to put serious effort in to get it done. I'm the only person from my faculty to study outside of Europe, because I app. Some of my peers just don't even bother chasing the opportunities that they have. There's a lot wrong with the current education system, both in the Netherlands and the US, I agree. Still, the current generation is the best educated and most diverse as far as I know. I don't think society is going to downhill just yet.
I have a history professor who more than once has been moved to near tears, because he believes the current situation for college students is worse than it was in the '60s and '70s, and we're either too complacent or too scared to do anything about it. Maybe he's right. Or maybe we should just skip straight to the torches.
The system is widely acknowledged to be flawed and at the point of collapse. The McCarthur Foundation, the Gates Foundation and a couple other fellowships are all working on systems whereby college credit would be interchangeable, could be challenged via testing to earn without paying, and could be accrued online, in person, etc. such that all college credit would be effectively the same. When that happens a whole bunch of calcified interests are going to crumble, and a whole bunch of for-profit diploma mills are going to shutter.
COULD. Lots of COULD, SHOULD, WOULD and EVENTUALLY in this thread. Very little actually happening. And any positive change would be years off. Employers determine the market for employees, and right now employers demand a 4 year degree and years of experience for entry level positions. They are able to do so, and will continue to do so until there is incentive otherwise. Edit* Who says it's at a tipping point? On what evidence? Who benefits from saying that we're at a tipping point? Who suffers? Whose wallets are affected?
Damn, dude. Chillax. I also said "are" and could have just as easily said "will" as "would." As far as "who says", how 'bout the editor of the chronicle of higher education?
http://www.jeffselingo.com/about/
sigh So instead of reacting, try listening. That's the former editor of the Chronicle of Higher Education, arguing in not one, not two, but three books about the coming disruption in college structure. This is not unlike the editor of Hot Rod Magazine writing a book about the 'tuner possibilities of Nissans and Mazdas since Ford and Chevy are obsolete. It's akin to the editor of Guns and Ammo magazine arguing that gun control is going to be better for recreational shooters. And he's not recommending changes. You said "who says it's at a tipping point?" Well, the people who oughtta know. The MacCarthur foundation paid out 250m last year. Not sure what they spent on their initiative, but it was a non-negligible sum. The Bill & Melinda Gates foundation isn't exactly poor, either, nor are they known for doing little. We're in a position where I say "things are changing" and you caps-lock your way to NO WE AREN'T and then I say "no, really, we are," and you're still getting up in my grille. Read the damn book. Then come back and shout at me. If you'd asked for more, I would have given you more... but if you're just gonna get spittle on my glasses I got better shit to do with my day.
Not the intent, and I'm sorry that's what came across. Unless there are measurable real-world consequences, even a single persons anecdote, I have a really hard time believing that any amount, of any amount of money spent, accomplished good. I have a few different sources who have been involved with government budget allocation at several levels, and I learned from them that a million dollars here, a million dollars there, can vanish, and nobody knows what it actually did. I'll add the book to the library awaiting my academic digestion.you're still getting up in my grille.
I don't know about the rest of the youths, but I'm too busy being cynical/jaded. Maybe I could get behind a serious movement, but having seen what that led to in Egypt, Syria et al., even that's a little unlikely. Also what Cumol says: we have our bread and circuses, but not enough bread that we could focus on protest.
What happened in the arabic states was way more than what is needed to happen in europe/the US. The arabic states had to uproot EVERYTHING. They took out (or tried) all the teeth. While what is needed in europe is enough pressure onto politics so they are forced to react...
If it comes to my choice, I would want a socialist system. Sadly, I get weird looks when I tell that to people. For many Germans, socialist equals DDR (east Germany before 1989) and soviet Russia. It's so pathetic that it came to public debates whether it's okay to have a minister from the left party (Die Linke) in charge in Thüringen (Thuringia)
As an American, it's quite sad to see this country, this grand experiment, is failing. How long will it take for the country to decline and be torn asunder? I don't know, it could be quite awhile. Or maybe not. I look around at our society, and I'm shocked at how fragile it is. If some incident wiped out our communication or electric networks, the country will affectively shut down. If our food supply is interrupted, the average American is absolutely helpless to feed themselves. I feel if one of these perils does not bring us down, our own dearly held values will lead down that same path. Capitalism, the most efficient economic system in the history of the world, is turning our society into an oligarchy. We are running ourselves into the ground, and I think that will ultimately be our downfall. Abraham Lincoln uttered the above quote in 1838, and I think it rings more true today than it ever has.From whence shall we expect the approach of danger? Shall some trans-Atlantic military giant step the earth and crush us at a blow? Never. All the armies of Europe and Asia...could not by force take a drink from the Ohio River or make a track on the Blue Ridge in the trial of a thousand years. No, if destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of free men we will live forever or die by suicide. - Abraham Lincoln
I mean, well, I'm looking out my window at protestors on the 580 in Oakland, so I'm not really following here. It's about Ferguson, which may not exactly be in the vein of discussion here, but there are lots of very politically active people where I live. http://abc7news.com/news/group-marches-on-i-580-to-protest-ferguson-decision/409119/
Well, again, I have friends who participated in protests and walkouts at Berkeley over tuition increases, which have been obscene over the past ten years or so. http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/11/24/366370724/california-college-students-walk-out-of-class-to-protest-tuition-hikes That all said, I know plenty of people who cannot repay college debt and are struggling just surviving, much less getting decent medical care, being able to save, have the ability to negotiate employment, etc. I still think systemic change is absolutely necessary and their is a lack of resounding voices calling for it, but people are trying.
There are quieter acts of rebellion too. Trying to build more self reliant communities would help to decrease the reliance on government institutions which is a big thing that keeps people passive. Also, in Asheville, NC they have a pretty built up local food chain, I remember when I visited there all the restaurants were big on buying local. There was some chain of discount food kinda stores that offered a lot of local produce to. That sort of assesses the problem that typically local food is inaccessible to the poor. I feel the post isn't terribly thought out but I'm just trying to say I think trying to create a comfortable living outside the intertwined system of business and government would give people more freedom to rebel. People my age could also vote too, I know I didn't this year.
Assuming that most millennials lean left (which they do), then yes, vote Democratic, or Green. But don't discount the primaries. That's where the Tea Party has moved the dial most effectively. If all millennials voted, Dems would be falling over themselves to demonstrate their liberal credentials. Elections are an evolutionary process. Votes are environmental pressure.
I don't think it'd happen in one election cycle, but if you change the political landscape of your local or state government than you'd be picking people that you felt were honest or educated to hopefully become career politicians. Fuck if I know who ran in my city/state this year though, so I don't know what the canidates looked like.
And here is a fundamental problem of the terminology. For you, that's a "quieter act of rebellion." For the author, that's "opting out": I think that's a flaw of the article: To be considered a "rebel" you have to be loud and endanger your life. Maybe this generation is just more prudent in their choices.Trying to build more self reliant communities would help to decrease the reliance on government institutions which is a big thing that keeps people passive.
The real rebels of our moment are the ones who simply step away from the system altogether, but you never hear about them. They are willfully marginal, off the grid, self-silenced. Their rebellions may as well never happen.