I'd like to hear your thoughts on it. I do think that a majority of white Americans are either unwilling to acknowledge the problem, or are so ignorant of the problem and its context, that they are incapable of acknowledging it without a serious effort to erase their ignorance. Unfortunately, I think this education has to come from avenues that have real impact upon their current worldview, and that is not happening nearly enough.I'd really like to talk about why it takes so much effort just to get people to acknowledge the problem. Not even take action or empathize, but mostly just acknowledge.
Simultaneous manifestation of Willful Ignorance x Apathy X Fear of responsibility. Let me tell you, on Friday, I had a discussion with a younger co-worker (23, Im 27 for reference.) This person has admitted his parents are openly racist and he claims happiness that their behaviors did not rub off on him because of his black friend. This same person, however, refuses to admit responsibility for undoing the privileges and advantages granted to him by systemic racism. His reasoning? Because he isn't the one that did it. Despite admitting this construct actively benefits him and he lives in it, it is not his responsibility to facilitate dismantling it. In all my experiences with white people in peer group this attitude is one of the most common. This is supposed to be the forward thinking progressive milllenial collegiate educated american human citizen. Complaints and a bunch of "wow that's fucked up," but a lot more "oh well, not my problem did you see Game of Thrones?" This is literally not possible until, somehow, minority groups outnumber white people and then impose the same systematic oppression. That'd be hustling backwards. If anyone has been paying attention, that's not what any of us involved in this movement are even trying to accomplish. But a flipside to that is when black people get together and do something positive like Black Girls Rock, you see white people offended that something doesn't include them. Those same people are apparently incapable of making the connection "wait...what if this is how all of these people have felt for hundreds of years and we've been ignoring it the whole time." Unfortunately, I think this education has to come from avenues that have real impact upon their current worldview, and that is not happening nearly enough.
Here's why things don't get better. 'member Occupy Wall Street? Bunch of privileged white people whining about how their privilege was less than the privilege of other white people? There was no racial angle there, no history of oppression. It was simply "I am oppressed by your wealth." They weren't wrong, either - the grievances of the OWS movement were documented and genuine. But what do? George Packer wrote a succinct history of Occupy Wall Street in The Great Unwinding whereby he pointed out that there was no central platform, no unifying message, no set of concrete demands for the OWS movement to act on. What did they want? Something something rich people less rich. When did they want it? NOW! But how? HOW did they want it? embarassed silence So here we are. mk expresses regret and concern, and you want someone to, thenewgreen wants something actionable, and you've got So in response to two direct questions, you've got, essentially, acknowledge the problem as your solution. Yet in two posts of people "acknowledging the problem" you state So let's clear out the straw men. Let's clear out the wiggle language. Let's clear out the veiled hostility and misdirected anger. Here we are, three white guys, dismayed and upset of the treatment of blacks by white police. None of us are cops, none of us have ever pointed a gun at anyone, and none of us have any more ability to affect the situation than you. Arguably less, in fact: Here we are, going "what can be done?" and your argument is "stop being racist." Despite no demonstrated racism, despite an explicit statement of dismay, despite attempts at affinity for the black community, we're still 1) white 2) privileged 3) to blame. Despite what you may think, there are very few concrete opportunities for the average white citizen to combat racism and police brutality. Abstract opportunities? Well, here is one. And your instinct is to lash out at us. The subtext of this conversation is really simple: "I, a white person, feel bad about systemic racism and police brutality against black people." "I, a black person, want you to feel bad because you are responsible." "Yes, but what can white people do?" "Feel bad." "Will that actually change anything? It seems like - " "Feel bad and accept that you are bad because you are not black." _________________________________ Make no mistake - I perfectly understand and entirely forgive the impulse to shit on the whole of the white race in circumstances such as this. But I think a lot more forward progress will be made when the act of shitting on the white race is no longer held forth as a solution. 'cuz really? This is all the confronting of racism any of us are going to do today and it's mostly you hating on us for sharing the skin color of people whose acts we condemn. It's akin to berating Iranian Shia muslims for the actions of al shabaab.admit responsibility for undoing the privileges and advantages granted to him by systemic racism.
It's taking responsibility for your personal experiences the moment you become aware of these things. If you're white, you dont shutup when your peers say ignorant things about others. You dont shutup when they try to leverage systemic privilege against others.
But white people refuse to listen because it is invisible to them
Complaints and a bunch of "wow that's fucked up," but a lot more "oh well, not my problem did you see Game of Thrones?"
But as all of this continuous activism and incident after incident has shown, it is literally near impossible to hold any of these people responsible. And that difficulty is compounded by the white majority refusing to acknowledge the issue.
But a flipside to that is when black people get together and do something positive like Black Girls Rock, you see white people offended that something doesn't include them. Those same people are apparently incapable of making the connection "wait...what if this is how all of these people have felt for hundreds of years and we've been ignoring it the whole time."
As I read it, JackTheBandit's message is that our inertia is due to our privilege, and I agree. He points out that one obvious solution for minorities is the outnumbering of whites by minorities that will do the same. IMO what he is talking about is: "How do we make things better for blacks without having to wait for that day?" His suggestion (as I read it), is for white people to squash the subtle shit that perpetuates this us/them mentality at every opportunity. Hell, we started recycling when we couldn't feel any effects except a delusional self-satisfaction. We vote. We eat organic. We can feel good about this drop-in-the-bucket social behavior, with the hope that doing so will lead to genuine cultural shifts like the others.
kleinbl00 there are levels to progress. Step 1 is admitting this shit is happening, it's real, and needs to be stopped. (There are clearly a very very very large number of people that have not gotten here.) Step 2 is (this is where you claim to stand based on your post.) actions against the construct. This happens in 3 forms (as best as I can explain) 2a. People (read: white people and "minorities") who are aware and are active in environments where these behaviors manifest must confront them on an individual basis. 2b. People (read: white people and "minorities") who are aware must be active in engaging the people and environments who are subject to the construct in question. Part of mk 's suggestion (2a,b) 2c. People (read: white people and "minorities") must organize against the tools of the construct embedded within the environment at large (read: legal systems, government agencies, etc.) Now, I do not know how much you are aware of, but the organizers of groups like Black Lives Matter, Dream Defenders, The Justice League, etc do have concrete lists of demands. (Also a detail that must not be ignored: these groups have nothing to do with the old guard which has long been corrupted -Rev Al and friends.) Demands that can be acted upon in the near and long term by people in positions of power. reasonable demands. These demands have been the organizing points the whole time.
But, kleinbl00, I'm angry because to get to Step 2, we need Step 1. Because without Step 1, we make very slow and small progress. And I can do but so much to influence Step 1, but you Kleinbl00, who has reached Step 2, can do a lot. Because the people who need to be spoken to will, unfortunately, listen to you before they'd listen to me. It took a breaking point in the death of Michael Brown and months of intense protest and organizing to get some very ignorant humans out of positions of power in Ferguson, MO. The Justice League has been organizing in NYC for years against NYPD's actions with few moments of "victory." We're not super heroes. We need help. And a lot of it is help from people convinced we don't. At the very least, I think we can agree that having to work from this point is indeed frustrating. Make no mistake - I perfectly understand and entirely forgive the impulse to shit on the whole of the white race in circumstances such as this. But I think a lot more forward progress will be made when the act of shitting on the white race is no longer held forth as a solution. 'cuz really? This is all the confronting of racism any of us are going to do today and it's mostly you hating on us for sharing the skin color of people whose acts we condemn. It's akin to berating Iranian Shia muslims for the actions of al shabaab.
'k check it. Step 1. "Admitting this shit is happening, it's real, and needs to be stopped." Seems to me that the entire sphere of media right now is pure unadulterated outrage. Your response? Step 2. "actions against the construct. So the entire media universe is outraged, yet you see denial. I point out that you're being sincerely engaged and you MUTHERFUCKING QUESTION MY SINCERITY. And then proceed to lecture me. And then proceed to argue that "actions against the construct" need to take part in "actions against the construct." Listen. I'm mad. You're mad. We're all mad. But you're mad at ME. You're taking it out on ME. I'm asking "so what do you actually want to have happen and your answer is "I want to lecture you, avoid your questions, pillory you and hold you accountable" despite the fact that I walked into this pointing out that shitting on people asking questions helps nothing. Check it. we're on the same side. Yet me saying "we're on the same side" just gives you more license to shit down my neck. Your name is green to me so I know you don't hold me in utter contempt. yet your actions? your speech? Your syntax? holds me in utter contempt. If you want to know why this argument is often frustrating, it's right above: here we are, attempting solidarity, and here you are, shitting all over it.There are clearly a very very very large number of people that have not gotten here.
this is where you claim to stand based on your post.
I'm mad. You're mad. We're all mad. But you're mad at ME. You're taking it out on ME. I'm asking "so what do you actually want to have happen and your answer is "I want to lecture you, avoid your questions, pillory you and hold you accountable" despite the fact that I walked into this pointing out that shitting on people asking questions helps nothing. Check it. we're on the same side. Yet me saying "we're on the same side" just gives you more license to shit down my neck. Your name is green to me so I know you don't hold me in utter contempt. yet your actions? your speech? Your syntax? holds me in utter contempt. See dude, let's talk about this. Because I don't know why you're taking this so personal when at no point was my intention to shit on you, but explain where I stand. This holds little meaning because the American media and population have both proven themselves to be pretty fickle. Not only that, media portrayal is subject to the same bias. Why is it that we know more about Walter Scott's mistakes in the immediate coverage than the faults of the man that shot him? This is consistent across pretty much every incident. Media is outraged now, but what happened to coverage of Tamir Rice, Rekia Boyd, Eric Garner being choked to death on video? How is it that these things clearly worth discussion fall out of the news cycle for a Justin Bieber roast? Is it really unreasonable that many of us have little faith in the intentions of corporate media? And then proceed to lecture me. Um, yeah dude, we're speaking on the internet. I dont actually know you. I didn't think it offensive to restate the position that I've observed you take. As far as the "lecture," I am stating why I feel step 1 needs to be taken more seriously at large. Again, there are actionable items I tried to explain in step 2 that require a lot more people having reached step 1 (IMO.) If we're in an environment where people can say they've reached step 1, but also say "I have no way to act on this." I don't think it's unreasonable to say that there's a problem in making step 1 happen. Which is why I feel that those who feel it legitimate to claim having reached that point should be very active participating in the sub points, especially 2a,b. Because, to me, those are the very first actionable items that facilitate 2c even being able to happen at large. I will openly apologize if my use of English has led to you interpreting my words as a personal admonishment. I assure you I'm trying to state my position and understanding overall. I'll even concede that my wording could come across as aggressive. However, that does not change my stance on not knowing your personal actions in real life. You could very well be a model citizen and even do a better job at the items I think and feel should happen, but I do not feel this makes my points illegitimate at large, which is the P.O.V from which I am trying to write.Listen.
So the entire media universe is outraged, yet you see denial.
I point out that you're being sincerely engaged and you MUTHERFUCKING QUESTION MY SINCERITY.
Apology accepted. Now let's talk about where you screwed up. Because you screwed up. And you don't understand that you screwed up, which means you'll screw up again. You didn't write "where you're at." You didn't write "where I see you." You wrote "this is where you claim to stand based on your post." That's called "distancing language." I said something, and rather than accept that I said something, you phrased your response to suggest I'm a liar. Now how 'bout this? It does, though. See, your every move has been to invalidate my opinion until I got up in your grille and said "stop fucking invalidating my opinion." Your defense for invalidating my opinion is "I don't...know you" and you "didn't think it offensive to restate the position that I've observed you take." But you're NOT restating my position. You're denigrating my position. You're demeaning my position. You're sweeping my position under the rug because rather than give me the benefit of the doubt, listen to me at face value, or presume that I might actually have an opinion worth acknowledging, you presume that this is the internet and the only position that matters is yours. No, you don't actually know me... but you know the words I've put onto this page. That's enough. You can accept them as sincere and we can have a discussion, or you can argue that because news is on a cycle everything everyone else says is invalid. Which seems to be where you're going. "News" means "information that is new." That's why coverage of every recent black brutality gets buried in triviality - otherwise we'd still be outraged about Medgar Evars and Dred Scott. Besides which, this isn't the news. This is a small community directly conversing about this subject. Here we are, outraged. here we are, engaged. here we are, sympathetic and here we are, talking about it. So why do you keep throwing "the news media" in my face? You're not "personally admonishing" me. You're negating everything I say and using me as a proxy object to vilify the nameless something out there that perpetuates racism and violence against blacks. And that's the discussion to have: How is it that I, a person who can have a conversation like this, can wake up and express sympathy and concern only to not want to address racism? 'cuz that's what's happened. I woke up dismayed at more cops doing more inhuman bullshit only to be told it's my fault, I can't be trusted, I'm responsible for the news cycle and I should feel bad even though I've never even been to South Carolina. This is how racial divides happen. Next time? not gonna say a goddamn word. If I can't even have a sympathetic opinion without being to blame, I'm gonna keep myself to myself because that's the least conflict for me.I dont actually know you... You could very well be a model citizen and even do a better job at the items I think and feel should happen, but I do not feel this makes my points illegitimate at large, which is the P.O.V from which I am trying to write.
I'd like you to clarify this post a bit more because I'm no longer sure if you're speaking about your personal offense at the words I used within the point I was trying to make, if you feel I shouldn't have disagreed with your original reply and my choice of words made it worse, or if my point can no longer be valid because the language I used can lead to it being perceived as a personal attack on you over a discussion of behaviors at large (perhaps some combination of the three? at the moment it's reading to me that this is more about the personal language choice and not the steps I think we should be taking.) That specific question aside I'd like to clarify statements outside of the discussion of poor language use. I think these places are where the disconnect began to happen: Having gone back, it seems that you've taken my statements as personal attacks because of positions you hold.
If we go back to the reply I @'d you in originally, I am piggybacking off of mk statement
This is not clear (which is my fault.) The steps 2a,b,&c I listed aren't a direct attack on your personal position. They are genuine actions I think and feel anyone, who says they've moved beyond that construct, should be able to participate in. 2b. People (read: white people and "minorities") who are aware must be active in engaging the people and environments who are subject to the construct in question. Part of mk 's suggestion (2a,b) Notice that I didn't exclude the responsibility of all involved peoples and instead only drew the line in terms of the apparent construct "white people and minorities." (Which is a thing people see, so I felt it relate-able.) I am genuinely saying that we all should be taking these actions in w.e capacity we can. Now, where I would be challenging your position directly is here : Not being an explicit or implicit racist is step 1 and that is not enough. It isn't. The "progress" made thus far wasn't because of people who went "I'm not a bad guy that's enough." It's the people who went and marched and protested and tried to take over government positions and etc. You do have concrete opportunities. In 2c, I listed 3 activists groups who could use support. So even if you don't have to deal with racists directly, or have the chance to interact with other peoples and cultures consistently, you can still at least help the organized groups who are working on challenging the system. If we agree that one option is the "few." It's still something that can be done and from my life experience a lot of people who claim to be as genuine as you, wont do that small task. Not so much as a RT or link to their work let alone donation. That's mainly what I am trying to highlight. That there have been people working on creating the space necessary to combat the tools of the system. Which bring me to clarifying another point which popped up later: this is not a nameless something. This is a clearly defined history of a specific, seemingly popular, demographic of people using the powers granted by American society to create environments by which another specific demographic of people can be systemically limited. This is not nameless, books have been written on New Jim Crow, our disproportionate legal action against black and hispanic peoples, white flight, discriminatory hiring practices. These are the actions of people and have to be addressed as such 1st. It's this understanding that influenced step 1. and why I claim that step 1 hasn't made it very far at all because these people are still acting in the environment with a very large amount of influence. Hopefully that's a clearer explanation. I think that's it.Arguably less, in fact: Here we are, going "what can be done?" and your argument is "stop being racist."
His suggestion (as I read it), is for white people to squash the subtle shit that perpetuates this us/them mentality at every opportunity
2a. People (read: white people and "minorities") who are aware and are active in environments where these behaviors manifest must confront them on an individual basis.
Despite what you may think, there are very few concrete opportunities for the average white citizen to combat racism and police brutality.
And then proceed to argue that "actions against the construct" need to take part in "actions against the construct."
the nameless something out there that perpetuates racism and violence against blacks
I had a bunch of shit written. Links, quotes. Doesn't matter. Here's the meat. My position: you cannot affect positive change via antagonism. Your position: unintentional antagonism isn't antagonism. I think we can both agree that you didn't mean offense. We might even agree that you created offense. Problem is, you don't see why I keep harping on that offense because, well, that's not the subject at hand. It is, though. Consider: you entered this discussion by implicating all of "White America" in callous indifference to the suffering of African Americans. You doubled down by informing mk that a solution was "literally not possible". So I'm the dumbass for trying to engage; I knew it was gonna be an uphill slog but I didn't expect to spend four exchanges explaining why "where you claim to stand" is an antagonistic way to restate someone's argument. If there's one thing to hear, it's this: when someone is asking for a concrete, right-now action item, burying a list of social media action groups nebulously arrayed around racial justice in Paragraph (2) Subsection (c) is the wrong way to do it. Particularly when Paragraph (2) Codicil (1) is "I don't believe you aren't racist." 'cuz they won't hear it. And they won't engage again, either. I'm just as outraged about police brutality as I was this morning. But I'm never going to engage about it on here ever again. If the simple act of expressing solidarity is gonna force me to defend myself, I'll skip it, thanks. And if you want to know why this stuff disappears from the media, there's a clue; when the only thing "black people" want "white people" to do is "feel bad about it" there's a lot of incentive to move on to the roast of Justin Bieber.
It upsets me that you feel behooved to halt engagement on this topic and potentially others out of an instinct of self-preservation, of keeping the blood pressure low as my eighth grade social studies teacher puts it. Hopefully you only feel that way because of the heat of the moment, because I have questions! : ) For one, these actionable items for concerned white males: besides continual awareness expansion and civic engagement, what more can we do? (I mean that question seriously, I hope it doesn't read sarcastically.) And also, is it inappropriate for white males to come up with answers to that question? Is the domain of that question reserved only for minorities to answer? I ask this because I would normally feel pretty confident in my abilities to brainstorm and act but I've been brushing up close, through hubski and other avenues, with these new ideas of social justice, chiefly, that the white man stay back and simply make room for those historically dispossessed and disenfranchised. I guess my natural inclination to get my hands dirty is running into some really sophisticated ideas on how things should truly progress.I'm just as outraged about police brutality as I was this morning. But I'm never going to engage about it on here ever again. If the simple act of expressing solidarity is gonna force me to defend myself, I'll skip it, thanks.
This is the beginning of answering your question. People make a big deal out of the phrase "you can't solve the problem with the same tools that created it," or something to that effect. How can the resolution to these problems be led by the same people who created/benefit/exist in them by default? The primary engineers and architects have to come from among those who have been victimized. You have to follow the lead of the victim. Ultimately, while the while people are capable of complete empathy, empathy is not the equivalent of lived and living experience. If you cannot have complete understanding of these experiences (read: systemic racism, the problem), then you are likely not capable of defining what the solutions need to look like. So at the moment
And when the victimized (read: minorities) begun to push back and create spaces in which all of their humanity can be accepted, you should likewise assist them in the capacity you are able to. So when minorities band together to try and push political issues relevant to dismantling systemic racism, support them. Don't try an recenter the action around what you want to do because it isn't about what you want. It is, fundamentally, about what we want. Always welcome to reply and I hope I havent made you feel threatened. Apparently, I'm prone to do so when speaking on this. that the white man stay back and simply make room for those historically dispossessed and disenfranchised
For one, these actionable items for concerned white males: besides continual awareness expansion and civic engagement, what more can we do?
Is something you should absolutely continue to do in the best capacity you are able to.
Hi. Middle class white kid here. I try to recognize privilege, I want to fight racism institutionally and personally., I see/hear a lot of people saying stuff like 2b. People (read: white people and "minorities") who are aware must be active in engaging the people and environments who are subject to the construct in question. Part of mk 's suggestion (2a,b) But I've never fully understood what it means. Could you clarify? Maybe give an example? What can I do to confront these behaviors, to engage those who are subject to the construct?2a. People (read: white people and "minorities") who are aware and are active in environments where these behaviors manifest must confront them on an individual basis.
I'm not telling you to go out and be a crusader for social justice. I'm saying that you can effect the spaces you already occupy. Maybe you play Xbox Live with your friends, maybe one of your friends likes to make disparaging comments about ethnic groups, tell him to cut that shit out and don't tolerate it. Things of that nature. Maybe you dont have any direct contact with African Americans, maybe all you know is from media portrayal. It'd probably be a good idea to find a teacher and ask difficult questions you may have in a genuine manner and learn something. Maybe goto events organized by other ethnic groups and listen to them talk about their experiences. These are things you should be able to do to some degree.
There may be some truth to that, but it's not something that the millennials wrought. There has been a swing that promotes social deference over social rightness in Western culture that probably started in the 90's. theadvancedapes posted a great interview with Slavoj Žižek a few days ago that addresses this issue, specifically, in the terms of the liberal perspective on non-liberal Islamic practices. I highly recommend it if you haven't read it.
It's a very good point, and it depresses the hell out of me. White people were eager to embrace Bill Cosby's criticisms of the black community, but sitting in the cultural pole position, they are unwilling to challenge their own community about the perpetuation of a culture that sidelines blacks in spirit and action. If police were murdering unarmed white people with such frequency, the music would stop. Musing about the context of this shooting promotes sidelining, because that context would have almost zero traction in the conversation if the victim were white. This is a problem that falls on blacks, and white people have the most power to change it. It is the ignorance and cowardice of white people that allows it to perpetuate more than anything else. The fucked up thing about human nature is the tendency to associate that which we appreciate with extant social mores, and skepticism is an avenue for self-exclusion. Whether or not minds can be changed, the message needs to be clear in the white community that airing of racists views should rightly end with the racist feeling uncomfortable, rather than those that listen on.This is literally not possible until, somehow, minority groups outnumber white people and then impose the same systematic oppression. That'd be hustling backwards.