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comment by alpha0
alpha0  ·  4593 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Kolmogorov Complexity, Causality And Spin
| I like the fact that this brings irreversibility into the relationship.|

I personally found that brilliant. Very intriguing.

We share the same questions. You are the biologist: how many neurons must we rub together to get a basic Turing Machine?

    I'd love to have a beer over this. I need someone to sit down and walk me through it.

No, no, I would say that that conversation clearly calls for GanJah.





mk  ·  4592 days ago  ·  link  ·  
    You are the biologist: how many neurons must we rub together to get a basic Turing Machine?

Seems 11 might do the trick. (PDF)

    No, no, I would say that that conversation clearly calls for GanJah.

Oh no, I get far too silly. All sorts of confusion and even a bit of paranoia. It took me a while before I decided it just wasn't going to work out between the two of us. :)

Working through this discussion...

alpha0  ·  4592 days ago  ·  link  ·  
    Seems 11 might do the trick. (PDF)

Thanks! It will have to wait for this evening.

    Oh no, I get far too silly. All sorts of confusion and even a bit of paranoia. It took me a while before I decided it just wasn't going to work out between the two of us. :)

That's fine, but just remember to don't criticize it ;-)

mk  ·  4592 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Sorry for the delay. I am not done here yet! Today didn't grant me much time.

I'm wondering on the talk of dimensions here, and how it might apply. It takes n+1 dimensions to define n dimensions... Things to sleep on.

b_b  ·  4593 days ago  ·  link  ·  
    how many neurons must we rub together to get a basic Turing Machine?

I think the more neurons you put together, the less like a Turing Machine your system will look. The firing of each has a stochastic component that combines in some way (I don't exactly know how, but probably something less than purely additive) with its neighbors. The uncertainly is too high to be a Turing machine; its the reason you can't throw a dart the same way each time.

alpha0  ·  4593 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Fine, but then as mk pointed out, where do we find this reality constructing machines? (I have my own views, but they are entirely of a meta-physical nature ;-) Dara's view (as he states in reference to Maxwell's cogs and wheels) per my reading is that that is irrelevant, so long as the conceptual model is effective. But clearly, if there ever was a viable avenue of pursuing the relationship between consciousness and materiality, this is it. Don't you agree?
b_b  ·  4592 days ago  ·  link  ·  
    ...if there ever was a viable avenue of pursuing the relationship between consciousness and materiality, this is it. Don't you agree?

I'll give a qualified "yes" to this question. Here's the qualification: I think it is wise to look for a connection between consciousness and materiality in some conceptual, perhaps mathematical (perhaps purely philosophical, although I find that much less appealing), framework. Whether its this particular one, I can't say, because I don't understand his logic entirely yet. But I certainly grant that I like his approach.

I think the manner in which consciousness is broached in neuroscience is one of the great scientific farces of the day (and its also one of the most romanticized, unfortunately). The attempts to atomize consciousness to statements like "your occipital cortex merges image for you", or "your amygdala gives you 'fight-or-flight' instructions" make me sick to my stomach. There is not one sensible statement that grants faculties to the brain itself, yet that is the norm in neuroscience. We, as individulas, are conscious beings, whether purely material or material-metaphysical. I hope one day we can discover a conceptual framework in which this idea can be interpreted, but I know beyond doubt that it will never be discovered by a traditional neuroscientist.

alpha0  ·  4592 days ago  ·  link  ·  
    I think the manner in which consciousness is broached in neuroscience is one of the great scientific farces of the day ..

The 'just so' science. I share your revulsion regarding this matter.

    .. (and its also one of the most romanticized, unfortunately).

An entirely chance phenomena? Consider the socio-political dimensions ...

b_b  ·  4592 days ago  ·  link  ·  
I think the brain is the new space exploration, which was the new sea exploration. In each of the former cases we had dramatic and fantastical tales, canelli on Mars, serpents past Gibraltar, etc. The unknown leads to rampant speculation, often wild and romantic speculation. The brain is so unknown that we ascribe to it all of our unknowns. We can find love, loss, smart, stupid, creative, dull, etc. in the brain. Its mysteriousness and complexity is what drives these speculations. (Well, that and a non-existent emphasis on philosophy in secondary and university education).