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comment by oyster
oyster  ·  2542 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: How a self-driving car killed a pedestrian in Arizona

I feel like even if you think the car might slow down, just don’t walk in front of it. Alberta has a bunch of crosswalks in the middle of roads that wouldn’t otherwise be a stop for a vehicle. They trip me out, I basically wave at the oncoming traffic before ever leaving the sidewalk. Other pedestrians don’t even slow down to look at traffic and it boggles my mind. They aren’t 14 year olds getting alcohol poisoning at a small town fair at the age were they are supposed to feel invincible. They are grown ass men and women who somehow still didn’t get the message that they aren’t invincible.





kleinbl00  ·  2542 days ago  ·  link  ·  

There's a certain breed of arrogant pedestrian that crosses against the lights to prove they have power. The less money you have, the more likely you are to do it in affluent neighborhoods. As a driver you're supposed to be alert and you're supposed to yield the right of way to pedestrians. As a robot, same thing... but if your programming sucks, and you're banking on a human driver who doesn't notice...

oyster  ·  2542 days ago  ·  link  ·  

You’re supposed to yeild the right of away, that’s not going to convince me to walk into a street in front of a car even when I have a crosswalk. People do it here when it’s icey or the road is covered in slush. I assume these people are poor because I assume they’ve never owned a vehicle and therefore don’t understand how much time it needs to stop especially in those conditions. Like the people who switch back into a lane right in front of a transport truck don’t really get it. Most people I know who have been hit by cars were hit from behind in some way because the vehicle wasn’t in its proper lane or paying attention to other vehicles.

This scenario though, it’s one of those times that it really looks like the pedestrian could have avoided it by valuing their well-being.

kleinbl00  ·  2542 days ago  ·  link  ·  

What you're supposed to do has no bearing here. An autonomous vehicle needs to be able to operate where pedestrians misbehave, just the same as humans must.

People do stupid shit because they think they can get away with it. Nearly 100% of the time they can. When they can't, they get signals from cars - they honk. They screech their tires. They swerve.

Trust me - you do not want to live in a society where people blame the human when the robot crushes them where a fellow human wouldn't.

oyster  ·  2542 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Trust me - you do not want to live in a society where people blame the human when the robot crushes them where a fellow human wouldn't.

I think that’s the argument though, if a person had been driving the car would she be alive ? One of the guys I went ice climbing wth worked on AI, he told us about the driving courses he took in preparation for getting behind the wheel of the autonomous vehicles. I forgot to tell him about hubski, I regret that now. They were all about the kind of evasive manoeuvres we don’t learn in plain old drivers ed in case he had to take over last second.

At first that made me think maybe with autonomous vehicles the way we teach people to drive could change. Instead of focusing on the basic’s we would have more time to focus on defensive and evasive driving techniques. Although I doubt that would stick around in their head and people would still get too comfortable. For everybody who always takes the right precautions using a machine in a workshop their are many more who cut corners.

Now I’m thinking, how much safer does it have to be for us to trust autonomious vehicles over human drivers ? I think with human drivers we are able to blame one person but with the cars we wind up blaming all the cars even if statistically it is safer. We should obviously keep looking at the technology and trying to make it safer but will it ever be good enough ? And where does fault lie when an accident does take place ? Is it the cars fault or the human drivers for not paying attention and being able to take over ?

kleinbl00  ·  2542 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Yes. If a person had been driving the car, she would be alive. THAT is the argument: even with a reduced reaction time, inferior vision and molasses-slow processing, the human has evolved to see other humans.

Lost in all this is the false equivalence about Uber/Tesla autonomy vs. Google autonomy. They aren't even vaguely the same. Google is trying to turn the entire world into a well-defined slot car track while Uber figures they can make a robot who knows how to drive.

Uber is failing.

WanderingEng  ·  2541 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Uber/Tesla autonomy

What's Tesla's next step? Last I knew "autopilot" simply meant "adaptive cruise control and lane assist." I have to hand it to Tesla's marketing department on that naming.

kleinbl00  ·  2541 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I here humbly invite b_b to slag on Tesla because he's so much better at it than me.

b_b  ·  2541 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I'm retired. Just like with Christopher Nolan, I can only take so much hatorade before it's just not worth it anymore.

oyster  ·  2542 days ago  ·  link  ·  

But how do we actually know that ? There was a human in the car who’s job was to make sure the vehicle didn’t screw up and somebody still died.

kleinbl00  ·  2542 days ago  ·  link  ·  

The human failed to intervene.

Worthy of note: Google's cars have no intervening humans. They acknowledge that if you're counting on the human to keep you out of trouble, you're guaranteeing that you'll have trouble when the human is least ready.

oyster  ·  2541 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I figure he got comfortable like a lot of other normal drivers do, maybe it’s my paranoia but I think many drivers would have reacted poorly in his situation. A lot of people drive in predictable places and then they go traveling and they merge at 50 km/h directly in front of a semi going closer to 90 km/h while I sit on the on ramp thinking but I’m the one who hit my head, why are you like this ?

Back in drivers ed my instructor randomly said “ I see a cop car, do you” and then went on a story about how he never got a ticket because he was always scanning. His main point was that a lot of people get comfortable and stop scanning and looking for the seemingly unpredictable.

I do agree that the likelihood of the human safety driver being aware enough to intervene is low because they aren’t really engaged in the driving process before that point. They really seem like more of a false sense of security.

kleinbl00  ·  2541 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I'll wager that at 38mph, you wouldn't hit a raccoon.

You wouldn't hit a porcupine.

You sure as shit wouldn't hit a deer.

A pedestrian?

So some pedestrians do dumb shit. Homeless pedestrians in particular. I was coming around a 50mph curve once, at night, in the rain, only to find a black dude (a dark black dude) wearing camouflage fatigues pumping his wheelchair in the middle of the middle of three lanes right at me. He waved. He knew he was doing dumb shit, but he did dumb shit anyway.

I didn't hit him, and neither did anyone in front of me. Neither did anyone behind me. Was he lucky? Hells yeah. But in general, people are lucky when it comes to cars. That's because humans have, deep in our understanding of the world, the notion that sometimes shit goes horribly wrong and we have to wing it.

Robots don't wing it.