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comment by kleinbl00
kleinbl00  ·  4855 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Are jobs obsolete?
What a bunch of sophistry.

Rusikoff is arguing for a return to the peasant economy - the problem, of course, is that 85% of North Americans, 80% of South Americans, 90% of Europeans and 88% of Asians live in cities.

Ahh! But Jeron Lanier already solved this problem! They'll make "digital stuff!" The same "digital stuff" that everyone is grabbing for free? Well, yes. Except if you read Lanier, he's firmly of the opinion that people will pay an extra $30 for MP3s if it comes with a bitchin' limited edition necklace (no shit).

The whole problem with this bongsmoke utopia is that in order for people to benefit from "producing" things, someone has to WANT those things. Considering the article is all about how nobody needs "things" any more, all the rest of it is just smoke and mirrors to make you not notice that the drive of the article is "everybody hang out in your loft and make funny hats for Second Life."

What we lack is employment - meaningful, challenging work that rewards a person for engaging in it. We no longer pluck chickens and pick nits for a living because 200 years of education has made that an unacceptable avocation for most of humanity. People need to do things in order to not hate life.

Do they need their livelihood directly tied to their labor? No. But they still need "jobs."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc





mk  ·  4855 days ago  ·  link  ·  
I agree that people need to be productive, but I disagree that "we no longer pluck chickens and pick nits for a living because 200 years of education has made that an unacceptable avocation for most of humanity."

Most of humanity still does this sort of mindless labor. But instead of picking nits, then plucking chickens, they do one or the other all day, for someone else. -Solder these two connections, then put it back on the convyor belt.

I don't think he is arguing that we should return to a peasant economy, but that our economy might resemble one in the sense that we spend more time doing things for ourselves.

kleinbl00  ·  4855 days ago  ·  link  ·  
I think you have a spotty understanding of "skilled labor."

I've had any number of friends on electronics assembly lines. Yeah, I could do their job - but it would involve some training. No, they don't do the same mindless thing all day long - that went out at the end of WWII. As far as "the rest of humanity" here's $200 a month in a Mumbai sweatshop:

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/201104/mughal.maal.htm

Tell me that isn't "skilled labor."

Rusikoff is making the same tired argument that Abbie Hoffman made back in the '60s: "The government should exist only to provide basic needs for its citizens so we can sit back and drop acid." The problem is that HUMANS DON'T WORK THIS WAY. We seek mastery, we relish competition and we strive to make an indelible mark upon the world. For nearly all of us, that means "a job" - a job we get good at, a job we can teach others, a job we are respected for doing. The "peasant economy" worked because the sphere of influence of the average human even 100 years ago was pretty much "everyone around me that I can comfortably travel to in an afternoon" which wasn't a whole lot of people. Yet according to Ian Jukes, a week's worth of the New York Times contains more information than was available to the average citizen in the 18th century in their lifetime.

Could we all go back to pastoral living on the commons? Yes. Just as soon as all cities with a population over 1000 are eradicated. Until then it's a childish, ignorant pipe dream.

mk  ·  4855 days ago  ·  link  ·  
You make a good point. But the hyperbole threw me a bit.

I'd spend my time working my hobbies, which I can hardly find enough time for. But you're probably right about many people needing direction that they cannot find. Jobs may be inextricably linked to high density living.

kleinbl00  ·  4855 days ago  ·  link  ·  
I figure hyperbole is de rigeur when discussing an article whose argument is "we don't need, like, jobs, man, we just need, like, computers'n'stuff!"

People like to work. Don't believe me? What the hell is Farmville, then? The disconnect our society faces is this: That which we do for money is seldom that which we do for fun.

This is a trap society has placed for us and only the clever evade it. The trick, however, is not to erase "that which we do for money" but to empower "that which we do for fun." I think in a round-about sort of way, I agree with the author in this... but his approach to dealing with the problem is sophomoric at best.

mk  ·  4855 days ago  ·  link  ·  
No, I believe you. I actually agree with you and the author each to some degree. Honestly, I'm just bouncing this idea around in my head, and deciding what does and doesn't make sense about it. Society never stops evolving as technology does, so it makes sense to speculate on where we might be headed.

What interests me is: If production keeps increasing, will we end up doing work that we enjoy more, or work simply bear the same relative burdens to constantly improve production?

cW  ·  4854 days ago  ·  link  ·  
I kind of feel as if a false dichotomy is at work in this article, and the ensuing discussion: either we continue as wage-slaves for corporations, or else we become subsidized individuals making strictly digital products for personal fulfillment. One of the greatest losses to humanity inflicted by the age of mechanical reproduction was that of the artisan, and I think that if Rushkoff's recommendations for the renegotiation of goods for services were put into place, we would see this class rise again, and with it, hopefully, a renaissance of individual genius and discovery. This kind of work, after all, is deeply fulfilling to the individual, whose personal interests dictate the trajectory of accomplishment, whose skill determines its scope, and whose accomplishments result in objects, whether concrete or ephemeral, which can be put to use, sold, consumed, etc. It seems to me that certain developments in local markets, such as the resurgence of small, local farms, dairies, ranches, etc., are evidence that the return of such barter economies would work both to enrich peoples lives (and diets) and to re-infuse their lives with purpose and dignity. The truly intriguing question this article poses is whether the development of these new micro-markets will occur in spite of increasingly outmoded economic systems, or in accordance with new ones. My guess? The former.
mk  ·  4853 days ago  ·  link  ·  
cW, I mentioned elsewhere that I saw my first 3D printer this weekend. Few 'new gadgets' have excited me as much as that. There is now a community (http://www.thingiverse.com/) that shares blueprints for things, that people make with these printers. This phenomenon gives me a lot of hope that an artisan economy might be possible, and maybe, because there won't be another option. -My guess is that eventually, no design department will be able to keep pace with (or no IP lawyer contain! :)) the crowd-sourced pool of creativity.
kleinbl00  ·  4855 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Bill McKibben lays out this argument pretty well in his book "Eaarth." He's not the first person to point out that an exponential system cannot increase indefinitely and that the notion of ever-increasing production is a recent (and dangerous) one. In a nutshell, McKibben argues that what computers have done for us is eliminate the need to travel and transport from far to near and that in the end, we're going to be much happier living much simpler lives.

However, he starts out his argument with "and we're totally fucked if we don't" and buttresses it with "and our lifestyles are going to be significantly less complicated and filled with stuff in the meantime." Things like "you're going to get to eat meat maybe once a week" and "foreign travel is going to be the luxury of the extraordinarily wealthy."

mk  ·  4855 days ago  ·  link  ·  
This comment has been deleted.