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comment by StephenBuckley
StephenBuckley  ·  4373 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: The Belief in Hell Causes Selfishness

Well, there are a number of issues here- first of all, the title says "Causes" but that's not actually true. Even the author of the post admits that if you dedicate your whole life to saving people then you are not selfish. What he meant in the title was "Believing in Hell and Not Acting to Save Everyone Is Selfish." Which, even still, is wrong.

Let's take his path example and examine how it correlates to reality. Well, for the believer in question it has two options-an eternal happiness and an eternal pain. And the believer can influence others to take either path, or do nothing. But, we assume, at some point people are going to have to go down one path or the other.

And how does it differ from reality? The most important way in which it deviates from actual belief in hell is this- neither path is a value judgment on the actions of those walking. The only thing the paths determine is whether you walked left or right.

But to a believer, this is not entirely what heaven and hell represent. I understand I'm about to step on some toes, but if you saw someone walking down the path whom you knew was a child rapist, or a serial killer, the murderer of your wife and the ravager of your daughter, and they're walking towards this fork having never been punished for what they've done, do you hesitate in saving them? Sure, they probably don't deserve an infinity of punishment (who does?) but do they deserve an infinity of happiness? And I mean this not as in "think of a bad person." I want you to imagine that someone stabs whoever you love in the eyes, over and over again while you watch your loved one scream and writhe and die slowly. You are powerless to stop them, and this person enjoys it. Do you honestly encourage this person to have an eternity of bliss?

These paths are not just something you walk down- they are something you are judged with after you die. There is an obvious way to convince "rational" people in the path example- just point out to them that you're the only data point they have about what happens on the other end of the paths, so why risk it? Choose the path the only person with any knowledge recommends because you have no idea what's down there.

It springs to mind that a "true believer" would have mercy, and do as Jesus asks and forgive this person, and pressure this murdering, child-raping love-destroyer into paradise anyways. But just as getting down the road to hell is not as simple as walking, neither is the road to heaven as easy as turning right. For this believer, the only way to get this child-rapist to walk down the right path is to make them believe that Jesus is their lord and savior. And this is a belief which is incompatible with everything that this child-raping murderer has done. To believe in Jesus' teachings (at least in this example) is to accept pacifism and responsibility, to forgive and atone, and to better yourself and others at all times.

Can you imagine how difficult it would be to convince a child-rapist murderer to accept Jesus? Can you imagine the number of hours you would personally have to invest? We can admit that even in a great scenario, it's going to be hundreds of hours.

Now, 4.1 people are born every second (ish, from not the best source in the world, but there are at least a few every second, it's not important what the number is). That's a lot of people.

That's a lot of people!

Now, let's say that the child-raping fuck will take you (conservatively) 1000 hours to make a true believer out of.

So is your time best spent trying to convince this child-raping murderer fuck that they should believe in Jesus? Or do you cut him out, tell everyone he's gonna go to hell, and spend your time working on 100 different 10 hour cases? In terms of effort, you've gotten a 9900% return on your time over working on the child-rapist murderer.

Now, you don't want to have to go through every single child-rapist or murderer, because it takes time to choose who to save as well, now that we know we're not going to save everyone. So you set up a sign in front of your conversion booth that says "child-rapists and murderers can proceed left, no questions asked, have a nice day." And things run smoother and you don't see child-rapists and murderers.

But there are other people who don't believe that anything matters besides themselves. And you collect data while saving people and find that it generally takes you 100 hours to make a true believer of this person. That's 10 people's worth of time! That's not worth it, mathematically! So you put up a sign that says "Narcissists can go left as well, to a place where it's all about them." And you keep converting.

And after a few thousand more of these rules, what you have is something that starts to look a lot like a religion, but is based entirely on how selfish you're not.

Internet Waiver: I am not a Christian, or a believer in any religion, but I find it frustrating when people try to 'logically' tear down a belief system. You're missing the point.