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comment by steve
steve  ·  3964 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Should the government pay you to be alive?

I wish I had time to finish this article and respond longer. This is a great idea in theory - but I don't think you've spent enough time with poor people to understand how and why this breaks.

1 - many of the poor are emotionally, mentally, or psychologically challenged and lack the ability to wisely spend what they get. That's a major part of why they are in the position they're in. Give them $10, $100, or even $100,000 and they will fritter it away into nothing meaningful and they will be back at the office asking for an advance on their next check.

2 - greed. at every level, greed ruins this. In the utopia where we truly have enough of everything to go around - it will take generations to get it through people's heads. In some ways we have everything we need today - but greed keeps it from being distributed to those in need.

Hopefully I'll have time tonight to finish the article and perhaps the author will enlighten my darkened mind. I'd love to see this happen - but I'm a little too close to the reality of poverty to see this as the fix.





JakobVirgil  ·  3963 days ago  ·  link  ·  

there have been some experiments in min income that show that it increases the entrepreneurial impulse. Look at generations of trust fund kids some of course are worthless but most CEOS come from that class. Oh wait they are worthless too but you get where I am coming from.

steve  ·  3962 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I would love to see that data, because more than anything, I hope for people to succeed. In my limited experience with the poor (over the last three years or so), everything I do is in hopes to provide a stable platform from which a person can catapult upwards. And unfortunately - the vast majority (2 out of hundreds I've worked with) have done anything to better themselves or their situation.

I recognize that this comment and my previous comment may have sounded rude or demeaning to poor people. I genuinely don't mean to sound that way.

Poverty isn't as simple as having money or not. It's about a set of skills to take care of one's self and one's family. It's a super complex issue that giving a basic income will not solve. And remind me where the basic income comes from? Because if you're coming to me for another freaking tax dollar, I'm gonna lose my mind.

JakobVirgil  ·  3962 days ago  ·  link  ·  

You are an LDS bishop right?

I am sure you have had more time on the ground on this issue than most people. I think like most things it is the framing not the cash that helps. Giving money to someone because you believe in them helps a lot more than paying someones rent because they have failed.

Take the trust fund kids for example if they understand the free money is given to them because great things are expected of them they may turn out ok. Let me find you some papers.

steve  ·  3962 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    You are an LDS bishop right?

Guilty as charged.

    Giving money to someone because you believe in them helps a lot more than paying someones rent because they have failed.

Maybe… but either way - how will a base income from the government accomplish this? "Free" money from Uncle Sam doesn't indicate belief in me or tell me I've failed. It's just an amount that gets loaded on my debit card every month. I'm still not saying this is a bad idea - I just don't know if we can predict the total outcome. For a large chunk of people, it would be amazing. I'm thinking of the hard working single parents who work two jobs for a basic life, who cling to hope that nothing will go wrong. A stipend from the government would give them some breathing room. But for others, it won't make a difference at all. For these people, poverty is a lack of knowing how to manage themselves. It isn't taught by schools, it isn't taught by their parents. Breaking the cycle of poverty is RIDICULOUSLY difficult to do.

There is some appeal to just giving everyone a chunk of money and removing other programs like WIC, food stamps, Section 8 housing etc…. I like simplicity. But those programs can offer some controls around how the money is spent.

complex issue. complex solution. I wish we could remove some greed, some pride, and some selfishness from all sides.

JakobVirgil  ·  3962 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Everyone gets basic income if I understand it right no means testing. nobodies nose is rubbed in anything. (no bureaucracy to pay to do the means testing and nose rubbing )

For the rich it works like a standard deduction for the poor a payout it actually has a following and pedigree on the right. If I remember right.

Of course it won't cure the real evils of income inequality which is disenfranchisement and powerlessness. But it will pay the bills and give Mormon Bishops more time to focus on home teaching numbers.

steve  ·  3962 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Hahaha! That gave me a good belly laugh. You've got some insight into the mormon lingo. Hilarious. If I only had to worry about the numbers, this would be a much easier job.

JakobVirgil  ·  3961 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I born and raised in greater Deseret the only place were a Jew is a Gentile.

steve  ·  3961 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I'm sorry for that. Utah can be a traumatic place to live… for mormons too, but especially for anyone not of that faith.

but they have some of the finest skiing/snowboarding in the country.