a thoughtful web.
Good ideas and conversation. No ads, no tracking.   Login or Take a Tour!
comment by JamesTiberiusKirk
JamesTiberiusKirk  ·  3824 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Trust your doctor, not Wikipedia, say scientists  ·  

I'm going to tread carefully for fear of being misconstrued as elitist.

I'm a physician in training. On the one hand, you're absolutely right that patients absolutely need to be their own advocates and should read about things that their physician either prescribes to them or diagnoses them with. An educated patient is a safer patient as they can minimize the occurrence of these errors or, if they do occur, make a fuss to correct them. I'm thrilled when patients ask great questions and are eager to learn more about what's going on with them. Nothing makes me happier than doing some teaching with patients when they're genuinely interested and invested in their own care.

On the other hand, the layman really doesn't have enough medical knowledge to suggest treatment plans or otherwise intelligently question why management plans are what they are. This is because the patient - and the lay public generally - have absolutely no idea what all is involved when it comes to just "giving me an antibiotic" or "giving me a CT scan" or any other myriad of interventions that people think they need. The lay public thinks medical diagnosis is as simple as typing in their symptoms in Google, clicking on the first WebMD article that comes up, and voila! I have a diagnosis! This is so absurd and yet seems to be what the average person thinks medical diagnosis is all about. I would remind you that the Hubski userbase is hardly representative of the general public at large.

Just the other day I had a patient who refused to have an IV of appropriate size placed in his left arm prior to a surgical procedure because "that's not what they did to me last time." We made it clear to him that IV placement varies depending upon what's accessible at the time, and despite warning him that his refusal could very well result in his death due to an inability to push fluid quickly enough in an emergency situation, he was unrelenting. What are you supposed to do there? This is the education level with respect to medicine that physicians deal with on an average basis.

There's a reason physicians go to medical school for 4 years and complete a residency of a minimum of 3 years before being allowed to practice on their own, at least in the US. Please note that that's a minimum of 7 years of additional training beyond post-secondary education. Trying to explain the nuances of management and diagnosis is difficult because the lay public doesn't have the background necessary to explain these nuances to a degree that they will be satisfied with. Let's take a look at the article you linked to and discuss why some of these diagnoses may be missed.

Pneumonia: typically presents with fever, shortness of breath, and a productive cough. Other things that present this way, no name a few: viral upper respiratory infection, bronchitis, bronchiolitis, fungal infection, lung cancer, and many others. All of those things are dependent upon the history that particular patient gives you, and each requires a different management plan. Ideally the physician would've ordered a chest x-ray which is a dead giveaway for pneumonia, but we can't x-ray everyone who presents that way. So that leaves us with one of two options: treat conservatively, i.e., assume it's a likely viral infection (more common and resolves with no real intervention) and have the patient return for follow-up in a few days, or treat empirically with antibiotics and the risk that entails (inappropriate antibiotic selection, antibiotic side effects, etc. etc.).

Decompensated heart failure: this is actually pretty surprising as this should be a slam-dunk diagnosis. The typical patient is obese, has a history of chest pain/shortness of breath with exertion, and is older (40s-50s). They might also have some swelling in their legs (peripheral edema) though not always. Again, you could get a chest x-ray which would show some fluid in the lungs (indicative of the heart not working well), but depending upon how the patient presented you may not do that. What if the patient just tells you they feel tired and short of breath? That could just as easily be pneumonia or some kind of respiratory diagnosis, though, again, I'm finding it difficult to understand how CHF could be entirely missed.

Acute renal failure: this typically presents with oliguria or anuria (i.e., little or no urine production), though clinically this is difficult to diagnose. Diagnosis requires labs. Assuming labs were sought, this should once again be a slam-dunk diagnosis as it'll be pretty evident, but without labs it'd be difficult. You might think the oliguria/anuria could be due to some kind of obstruction along the urinary tract, though without any history of pain or blood from urinary tract that would be highly unlikely. Theoretically a physician would order basic labs as well as a urine analysis if a patient told them that they're oliguric/anuric, but again, the devil is in the details and in how the patient is presenting. Depending on what the patient is complaining of or telling me, that may not be the first thing I jump to.

Cancer: this is a pretty damn difficult diagnosis to make in the primary care setting as an initial complaint. The possible presenting symptoms are immense, and the only real clues you might have are vague complaints of fatigue and unexpected weightloss. If the cancer is metastatic, they might present with bony pain (metastases to bone), headache (metastases to the brain), or some kind of organ dysfunction (e.g., liver mets might cause right upper quadrant abdominal pain, lung mets might cause shortness of breath or hemoptysis [coughing up blood], etc.). In the absence of knowing the specific cases and how they presented, missing a cancer diagnosis would not be unexpected. Once again, depending on the patient's history it may not be the first, second, or third diagnosis on your mind. What if the patient was an otherwise healthy young man or woman? What if they're diagnosed with a lung cancer despite no smoking history? Cancer is the great imitator that requires what we call a "high index of suspicion" in order to diagnose in some patients. I'm not going to fault the 6% of primary care physicians that failed to diagnose it.

UTI/pyelonephritis (infection of the kidney): UTIs are theoretically easy enough to diagnose, and often if suspected patients will be sent home with an antibiotic and no further testing. Pyelonephritis, though, is not necessarily so obvious, and if you suspect a UTI the antibiotics used to treat it will likely be insufficient to completely treat a pyelo. Because they're getting slightly better though - the antibiotics will still do SOME work - the patient might think they're getting better and not think to let the physician know that they haven't improved a week later.

I give you all of these details simply to give you a very limited snapshot at how complex diagnosing supposedly common disease is. Patients don't show up with signs telling us their symptoms, and the same disease will present in a different patient in a different way. Telling physicians to "simply diagnose better" is like telling pilots to "simply not crash the plane" or mechanics to "simply fix the car." To those not involved in those fields the solution is obvious, but, as with many things, the problems lie in the particulars.

Theoretically these things are all controlled for in this study design, meaning that these errors which could've been due to diagnostic difficulty are actually bona fide errors. I have no way to say one way or the other and have to take the authors at their word since we can't see the data they used to design the study. But I think it's important to keep these things in mind when critiquing physicians or demanding better accuracy. Physicians are by no means immune from criticism, but I also think it's important to keep in mind that the lay public is, as a general rule, not sufficiently educated or trained enough to understand many of the difficulties involved in being a healthcare practitioner. This is how, for example, nurse practitioners have been granted the ability to practice independently after 3 years of formal training (with a total of 600 hours of clinical experience) while vehemently denying the need for additional required clinical training similar to that of physicians, calling it unnecessary, a waste of taxpayer dollars, and limiting their ability to alleviate the need for healthcare practitioners (read it for yourself here: http://www.aanp.org/images/documents/policy-toolbox/nproundtablestatementmay6th.pdf). Any physician will tell you that's absolutely absurd, because despite our 4 years of training with 1000-2000 hours of clinical training, no medical school graduate would feel comfortable treating patients on their own. But the average lay person doesn't get this, and because they haven't had the experience themselves it's difficult to make the arguments in support of things like this.

I know I went on a bit of a tangent there, but all that's to say: trust your doctor, not Wikipedia. Be an advocate for yourself, but also recognize that the physician treating you has had a minimum of 7 years of training in medicine in addition to the years of experience in practice assisting him in the process.





user-inactivated  ·  3824 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I don't think it's a tangent at all, thanks for writing up such an in-depth response! I didn't mean for my comment to suggest that doctors are bad at their jobs or that they should simply diagnose better. I'm well aware (well, to the extent a layman could be) of the difficulties involved in diagnosing, and I can appreciate why doctors need so much intensive training to be able to do it well. I took issue with the BBC's article because I think it really misses the point about what Wikipedia is for and why it's important.

Any doctor's opinion is only as good as the amount of time they dedicated to examining the patient and how current their knowledge is. Even after decades of practice and training, a doctor remains just one person with all the potential failures that come with that. So I think it's dangerous for people to think in terms of "trust your doctor" when a better attitude might be "give your doctor's opinion the weight it deserves given his training."

Rather than discussing the overall accuracy of Wikipedia's content, the article focuses on, in my opinion, a bunk statistic. It measures the percent of articles which have an error. That doesn't really provide a good picture of Wikipedia's trustworthiness overall. The best that can be said for that kind of statistic is that "there are errors, so be cautious." The thing is, the same can be said for any conversation with your doctor, or with really any expert opinion. We need to be cautious with all sources of information, because they are all error-prone to varying degrees.

When we reduce the information source to a single person (ie: "trust your doctor"), the possibility for error is at its highest. It's always better to combine multiple sources of information to create a more complete picture, and that's where I think Wikipedia is immensely valuable. If a patient sees their doctor and really isn't satisfied with the answer they received, or felt like the doctor didn't examine them long enough, or felt like their doctor didn't pay enough attention to a reported symptom, Wikipedia can be a valuable and predominantly accurate resource to help the patient understand their symptoms a little better and make the decision to go get a second opinion. It can also help them know what to look out for in the days/weeks before they decide to see a doctor.

The problem is when people use Wikipedia/WebMD alone and then that becomes their single source of information. That's definitely the worst case scenario, and I wouldn't disagree with the BBC focusing on that. I guess I just took issue with the way it portrayed Wikipedia given the nature of the research and what the statistic was actually measuring.

JamesTiberiusKirk  ·  3824 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Completely agree with your post. I think it ultimately comes down to this: people "just wanna be fixed." They want a magic pill that will solve their problem or the single surgery that will make them feel 20 again. They want those things with minimal work involved and, consequently, they don't have much investment in their own care. This leads to people following physician orders blindly without question, and while most physicians are well-trained and this trust is accurately placed, there are some bad apples out there that do some real harm.

For what it's worth, Medscape and WebMD are actually pretty good resources for medical knowledge for laypeople - much better than Wikipedia. The ultimate source of medical knowledge is UpToDate - it's what I use as a quick reference - but it's blocked by a paywall and by no means written for easy comprehensibility by laypeople. The problem is that medical knowledge is not the end-all be-all for medical practice. I "learned" pretty much everything you can find in those sources by the end of my second year of medical school. Coming to me and telling me what you learned on Medscape/Wikipedia/WebMD isn't helpful, because these are things that I know. Unfortunately many patients don't seem to understand this. What you get by seeing a physician is their judgment and experience - their ability to apply that medical knowledge for your particular circumstance and given your particular history. Dr. Drew Pinsky of Loveline fame put it best (transcribed from an episode of the Adam and Dr. Drew Show podcast) following someone implying that WebMD is an acceptable substitute for medical advice:

    “WebMD is just a bunch of... WebMD is just a bunch of inf... ok, this is - now you’ve really pushed my buttons. Cause you understand that WebMD is just a bunch of information, right? Information that we as physicians knew in our second year of medical school - second... year. Then we train for on average 8 more years - on average... 8... more... years to be able to apply that information by seeing it in real situations - developing JUDGMENT about those circumstances for your particular clinical circumstance. And then many people 10 or 20 years down the line have - they’ve seen THOUSANDS of these situations. So you go to your doctor not for what’s on WebMD - that’s information. You go for the physician to apply their judgment in that particular circumstance. It’s not about information. If it’s on WebMD, you’re just telling us the sky is blue - 'yes, we know the sky is blue.’"
mknod  ·  3824 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    I give you all of these details simply to give you a very limited snapshot at how complex diagnosing supposedly common disease is. Patients don't show up with signs telling us their symptoms, and the same disease will present in a different patient in a different way. Telling physicians to "simply diagnose better" is like telling pilots to "simply not crash the plane" or mechanics to "simply fix the car." To those not involved in those fields the solution is obvious, but, as with many things, the problems lie in the particulars.

I don't even think you need to preface this post with your "elitist caveat".

People think that because they have the information available, it means that they have the knowledge to solve a particular problem. But there is more to it than that, there is intuition and a thing I am unable to describe which allows professionals to see through problems much better than amateurs.

I appreciate your comment here because people need to be reminded that there is a reason to trust doctors and other professionals, not as an appeal to authority, but because they trained in areas and cases where you are not!

Seriously great read thanks for taking the time.

havires  ·  3784 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    We made it clear to him that IV placement varies depending upon what's accessible at the time, and despite warning him that his refusal could very well result in his death due to an inability to push fluid quickly enough in an emergency situation, he was unrelenting. What are you supposed to do there?

Let him die or suffer the consequences if he wants to staunchly believe one thing over what you're trying to do for him. It's that simple. You let him die because he wasn't agreeing to treatment, is there really anything else that you can do? I mean could you try to get him declared as unfit for making his own decisions and bring in a family member or something?

cgod  ·  3824 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Could the fact that this study came out of an Osteopathic college at all effect the analysis of the Wikipedia entries? I really don't know much about Osteopathy beyond that I think they are the guys who get a DO instead of an MD and that the discipline believed or did believe in some kind of "alternative" medicine stuff?

Any thoughts?

Great write up and thanks for taking the time.

I really enjoy looking up my symptoms every time I get sick to find the most outrageously horrible disease that I might have contracted but I never tell my doctor what I've come up with.

JamesTiberiusKirk  ·  3824 days ago  ·  link  ·  

DOs and MDs are effectively equivalent these days. In fact, a relatively big "shake-up" in the medical community is that the two organizations in charge of administrating the residency programs for the pathways will be merging in the coming years. This means that MD graduates will be able to enter DO residencies and vice versa, assuming certain additional requirements are met (the details of which I'm happy to share but which are boring and somewhat esoteric). DOs really should be seen as normal physicians, though - there is no appreciable difference between the two pathways anymore. The historical distinction between the two is that the DO programs include training in "osteopathic manipulative medicine" (OMM), which is essentially additional training in using musculoskeletal manipulation to treat disease. Sounds like voodoo, but it really isn't. There's also the now-historical distinction that DOs traditionally used a more "holistic" approach when treating patients. In the past this absolutely was a difference, but these days MD training has become much more "sensitive" and PC (for lack of a better description), so this is less of a concern than it was in the past. The reason I say the distinction between DOs and MDs is largely titular is that many DOs don't even use OMM in their daily practice; for many, it's simply something seen during school and quickly forgotten. Others see it as very valuable and continue to use it. But they learn the exact same medical science and have the same general training setup as MDs.

Hah, well as a medical trainee, it's just stress-inducing. Minor headache? PROBABLY BRAIN CANCER. Knowledge is not power in this case. Knowledge is just anxiety.

ButterflyEffect  ·  3823 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    ...musculoskeletal manipulation to treat disease. Sounds like voodoo, but it really isn't.

Do you know of any decent resources for reading up on this? I'm interested because I'm taking a "Muscoloskeletal Biomechanics" course in Fall and would enjoy a head start in it.

Seriously great write up above by the way, that's a comment I wish I could share with more people.