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comment by coffeesp00ns
coffeesp00ns  ·  3826 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Want to have a real impact on climate change? Then become a vegetarian

Damnit rrrrr I was just about to go to bed.

I work at a vegetarian/vegan/gluten free restaurant. Shit's delish yo. I also think that we need to, as a society, eat less meat in general. Finally, I think that Electric cars are cool as shit and think that despite their problems they are important to invest in for the future.

Those caveats aside, we've got some serious problems going on here. Wide swathing, absolutist arguments like these are a recipe for disaster, and are mostly just pissing into the wind (or preaching to the converted, depending on how you like your metaphors). The idea in this article is generally good, but, as bioemerl has pointed out, there are flawed statistics and uncited assertions all over it.

Also, never quote Albert Einstein (a quote I couldn't quickly verify, btw) unless you're writing a piece on physics or an Einstein Bio. Even then, keep in mind that he spent the latter part of his life trying to marry his Special Relativity to quantum physics - unsuccessfully, and to the ill of his reputation. Outside of his field, he was "Just A Dude", like the rest of us and unless you can back his opinion up with hard data then it's not worth the paper it was written on. Never has a man's reputation been so dragged through the mud as Einstein's because of the shit people try to attribute to him.

This article doesn't seem to acknowledge that livestock don't just mean something when it's dead - while it's alive, we can harvest the milk from mammals, the eggs from birds and reptiles (not sure there are any domesticated agricultural reptiles, but shrug). from the milk we can make cheeses, from the bones we can get bone meal to improve the soil health for our plants, from hides we can make leather. If we remove purely meat-purposed cattle herds in favour of a combined purpose herd then we'd be ahead of the game, and still retain some of the jobs that these sub-industries create (as well as delicious cheese and eggs, and useful leather and bone meal).

There are ways to make meat-eating more feasible as well -Offal, for instance. I'm of the Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall view, where we need to use as much as we can, treat the animals with respect, etc.

I'm bagged, so I won't get started on coal-powered cars (i mean cough electric cars ). I feel like this came out a shambles, but hopefully someone got something interesting from it. It was helpful to me to get these thoughts out on "paper".

cheers, all.





kleinbl00  ·  3826 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    I feel like this came out a shambles, but hopefully someone got something interesting from it.

Yeah, you're basically saying that advocating something like Meatless Mondays is more likely to cause worthwhile change than starting an article with

    Between widespread economic disparities, population growth, unsustainable agriculture and climate change, a study partially funded by Nasa predicted that civilization as we know it could be steadily heading for a collapse within the next century – and the window to create impactful change is narrowing.

I read somewhere that limiting your red meat consumption to twice a week was... magically good for the environment or something and also not bad for you, so I do that. I also pat myself on the back when I eat vegetarian once or twice a week (not one meal, one day). It's a hell of a lot more approachable for me than forswearing animal protein because critters be delicious.

I make no bones about the fact that my carbon footprint is much greater than your average Han Chinese but my everything footprint is much greater than your average Han Chinese so rather than becoming Han Chinese all at once, I attempt to do better. Doing better is so much more approachable than doing perfect.

So yeah. Suggesting that the apocalypse is directly due to my love of burgers does not put me on a footing for dialogue, if that's what the article is trying to do. Especially when it follows up with some vague statistics and hand-wavey proclamations involving Einstein.

Electric cars do pencil out, cradle to grave, for the environment. However, things get a little muddier if you compare a brand new hybrid with a used car that already exists.

coffeesp00ns  ·  3825 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Thanks for the info re: electric cars. I shared it with my brother, who is very critical of their production (especially the environmental cost of the batteries)

I think rather than "Meatless Mondays" I'd advocate something much like what you do - maybe 40/60 meat and vegetarian, with a focus on using all of the animal, not just the prime and choice cuts. Eat some Beef Heart or something, y'know?

kleinbl00  ·  3825 days ago  ·  link  ·  

"Focus on all of the animal" is really a different problem altogether. Machine-scale agriculture works on the premise of packing plants that take chicken specifically bread for giant breasts and tiny wings and thighs that then separate out everything and send it to other places to be used for different purposes. Economies of scale would dictate that having a giant Tyson factory distribute Foghorn Leghorn is going to be more efficient than you doing it; after all, you may or may not have a use for a chicken beak but there may well be someone out there who can use a truckload of chicken beaks.

I wholeheartedly recommend the book The End of Food by Paul Roberts; it's a thought-provoking and in-depth exploration of the externalities of modern agriculture. Bill McKibben's Eaarth touches on similar problems; McKibben describes his attempts to get his local restaurants to use locally sourced bacon, which doesn't exist, because without the massive economies of scale brought by megafarms, bacon can't be produced for less than $9/lb.

cgod  ·  3825 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Even just reducing the amount of meat used in meals is a decent step. Made a tomato basil tart that had about four ounces of diced ham in it. Fed two adults and a child with enough for someones lunch tomorrow, It had around four ounces of cheese on it as well. Salad with vegetables from the garden on the side.

Lot less meat than a couple of steaks and I'm in no way saying that there is anything wrong with a few vegetarian meals a week.

Make soup about once a week, only meat in it is the stock and sometimes a few ounces of fatback or bacon, with a loaf of bread it's a nice meal.

OftenBen  ·  3825 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I'm a huge foodie and get an unapologetic joy from eating dead animals. That said, I've made a point to start integrating vegetarian dishes into my own cooking, as well as using more bones, neck meat, and other such 'off cuts' that would usually otherwise be waste. It's good for my budget and my cholesterol.

bioemerl  ·  3826 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    from the bones we can get bone meal to improve the soil

From a living animal?

Mind explaining how? Because I think that's tough to do, unless you like jelly-cows.

And electric cars are important because they a) represent the ability for tech to shift to green power rather than "hippies", and because they can get their electricty from far more than coal in the future. Also, coal is much more efficient than gas, and coal is a local resource here in the US.

coffeesp00ns  ·  3825 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    From a living animal?

    Mind explaining how? Because I think that's tough to do, unless you like jelly-cows.

... I think it's pretty obvious that bone meal and leather (which proceeds after it in my list) are end-of life byproducts (which doesn't negate their usefulness, nor does it negate the argument). Either you missed a winky-face there, or you're being purposely obtuse.

I'm into electric cars, man. But i buy used and fuel efficient (my 2004 vibe gets 29-30 mpg on the highway, which is pretty good for having all the other features I need including carrying two of these when necessary). As I alluded to in my first and second paragraphs, I don't have a problem with the ideas presented in this article, I have a problem with HOW they are presented.

bioemerl  ·  3825 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I may have missed a winky face. I was also trying to be joking, not insulting about it.

coffeesp00ns  ·  3825 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I figured. Glad we can be reasonable human beings on this website!!

cheers

kleinbl00  ·  3825 days ago  ·  link  ·  

My KLR got about 65 MPG. That was pretty cool.

The Benelli gets closer to 35 but it also goes faster than I even really want to. The intake throats on it are bigger than they were on my Chevy 400.

coffeesp00ns  ·  3825 days ago  ·  link  ·  

If i didn't have to truck around a double bass, and I didn't have to visit my folks where it can get to -50, I'd drive a motorbike hands down. I wish there was a practical option. I thought about maybe a sidecar, but... probably not a good idea.