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comment by mk
mk  ·  4703 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: How will Hubuski maintain a high standard?
I just wish to caution you that if you attempt to solve "community" problems with "coding" solutions the outcome won't always be as desired.

Agreed. It is tough to say something meaningful about these matters, and yet drop enough qualifiers in order to convey that everything is game for reassessment given that trouble arises. I suppose that's why I mention that 'clarity of vision' is the one thing that a necessary component to avert disaster. It won't guarantee success, but lack of it will guarantee failure in due time.

I've spoken with Alexis and communicated with him a few times via email. I don't know him well, but I do get the sense that he puts a lot of thought into what he does. For better or worse, I don't think Reddit would have followed the same evolution if he remained at the helm.

BTW, it's nice to hear some feedback on dropping the 'all posts'. It took a bit of getting used to, but it feels like the right direction. The new user experience is something that I am thinking on quite a bit. http://hubski.com/lurk was a first step. More is necessary. Also, there are a few UI tweaks in the works that will hopefully make the existing site more intuitive. There is a bit of redundancy about this place that could use some attention.





kleinbl00  ·  4703 days ago  ·  link  ·  
One of these days you and I need to have a wide-roaming discussion about "tags." I think a deliberate methodology there, rather than an accidental one, will reap more benefits than any other developmental aspect Hubski has.

I, too, get a sense that Alexis thinks about stuff a lot. However, I think that Alexis mostly thinks about Alexis. My personal opinion is that he's back at Reddit because it increases his street cred as a pundit.

There was an interesting discussion on Reddit in which the question was "how to improve the default subreddits" and the overwhelming response was "eliminate the default subreddits." I'd link to it, but I can't find it, even though it was like three days ago.

Says a lot.

mk  ·  4703 days ago  ·  link  ·  
One of these days you and I need to have a wide-roaming discussion about "tags." I think a deliberate methodology there, rather than an accidental one, will reap more benefits than any other developmental aspect Hubski has.

Yesterday I went swimming and thought about tags the entire time. Don't think there aren't times that I click on the tag field and think: "WTF should I tag this as?!" Some creative tension is a good thing. Too much is a bad thing. I admit it is debatable.

To me, tags represent more than the name implies. They have editorial, subscription, grouping, creative, and temporal (i.e. trending) components, and I'm thinking on these. If tags do change, they need to bring an improvement measured in terms of all these components, what users want to do with them, without breaking, or encouraging gaming of them. And, they also have to be weighted against current content management. Following a tag means that you get a post from anyone that used that tag (barring ignored users). It's a huge effect. Yeah, we can have that tag thread soon. But I need a swim or two more first.

kleinbl00  ·  4703 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Well, simply put, it's another dimension by which to find content. The "user" thing is easy because "user" is unchanging. No matter how similar "Bob" and "Bobby" are they are discrete individuals.

"Tech" and "Technology" on the other hand have a lot of overlap by definition, and a little overlap with, say, "coding" and "gadgets" and "3d printing." With user following, you have affinity. With tag following, you have taxonomy. Affinity is the subject of poetry. Taxonomy is the subject of doctoral theses.

How are you doing the recommendations? Just thinking aloud, but it seems to me that if whatever analysis you're doing can "fuzz" tag boundaries the way it "fuzzes" your recommendations, if I subscribe to "#tech" and the commenters, sources and vote profile of "#technology" is similar, I should automagically get a few, some or all "#technology" posts as well. The onus should be on the system to provide the user with content, not on the user to determine the appropriate tag for submitting or subscribing.

Take it one further - allow multiple tags, but give each succeeding tag half the weight of the previous. If I tag a post about Rupert Murdoch's twitter feed with #business, #media and #murdoched, anybody who subscribes to any of those three tags should get it in their feed. However, since it was tagged #media second, it should be half as likely to end up in someone's #technology feed than if it were ranked #media first. This gives the user an incentive to be thoughtful about his tags, rather than scattershot - by the time you get to the fourth tag you have 12% the influence of the first tag and by the fifth tag you're in the noise. Until, at least, you have several tens of thousands of users and an equal number of tags, and then that statistical noise becomes more relevant.

Eventually, a solid subset of "tags" will build... but if people start tagging content with a new phrase ("#occupywallstreet") it begins "trending" just like a twitter hashtag. I'm no coder, but here from the cheap seats it seems like an approach that doesn't require tending, has room for growth and works the way I think you want it to work.

Now go swimming.

mk  ·  4703 days ago  ·  link  ·  
It's an interesting approach. It's important to consider the effect to which tags serve as content management, and following users does. Something like decaying tag weight is one way to find the balance. Twitter has in interesting limit wherein hashtags eat up the 140 character content: the more tags, the less message. There is also the possibility of non-author input on tags. I don't want to get too fancy. But I'd also like to leave room for users to develop their own uses.

Yeah, more swims.

kleinbl00  ·  4703 days ago  ·  link  ·  
>It's important to consider the effect to which tags serve as content management, and following users does.

Aren't they both content management?

If I found Robert Silverberg because I love science fiction, and then read "Book of Skulls" which is anything but, that doesn't mean I've transferred my love of science fiction into a love of Robert Silverberg. Likewise, "books about monastic orders" would include "The Name of the Rose" as well as "Canticle for Liebowitz" and "The Book of Skulls" which gives you three different authors - I can follow Umberto Eco and Robert Silverberg without worrying about how they're connected or what impacts they have on each other. Likewise, following UmbertoEco is likely to lead me to Carl Hiassen or Milan Kundera much quicker than #MonasticOrder is. Meanwhile, #Roadtrip would include "Book of Skulls" but neither of those authors and neither of their books - but it would lead me to "The Road" and "Zen and the art of Motorcycle Maintenance" where I can accept or reject Robert Persig and Cormac McCarthy on their merits, not their relatedness. Should I decide to follow Cormac McCarthy, it's going to lead me different places than if I follow Robert Persig, and that's appropriate. The two functions are intertwined, they do not compete.

I think you see it as an "either/or" proposition while I see it as an "X/Y" proposition.

As far as "finding their own uses" I think you'll discover that those uses have been found. "Tagging" is not new, is widely accepted, and has a pretty broad featureset that has been adopted across many industries. It just seems to me that the uses your users have found don't entirely jive with the ones you want them to find. ;-)

mk  ·  4703 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Just got a moment... but not either/or. It's a blend. The content management is based on that blend. Do most people filter by following users that share, or by tags from any user? I'm just considering the extent of the blend. If tags became the defacto sharing mechanism, you end up with something like subreddits. Everyone gathering around topics, not curating for each other.

I'm just saying that's part of what I am weighing in any possible tag redesign.

thundara  ·  4703 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Curious, do you have any thoughts on tag scraping? That is, in addition to what users tag, check the website's text/known domain's tag-list and grab them off of there, too?
mk  ·  4703 days ago  ·  link  ·  
That might serve into a 'suggested tags' function in the future. Not a bad idea.
forwardslash  ·  4703 days ago  ·  link  ·  
mk  ·  4703 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Thanks. I'll read up.
kleinbl00  ·  4703 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Yes. That's the one. Thanks!
lessismore  ·  4703 days ago  ·  link  ·  
BTW, it's nice to hear some feedback on dropping the 'all posts'. It took a bit of getting used to, but it feels like the right direction.

As you might recall, I was vocal about keeping the "all posts." I didn't like it very much and had to get used to "lurk." Now that time has passed, I find myself not even using "lurk" much if at all. I've made it a habit to just login and my customized feed with "many external posts." I now see the benefits of the implementation. If the "all posts" was still around, I can see myself being vociferous about hitech24, grupocm, and MahRanch and their spam polluting "all posts." Whenever I see what I consider to be spam, I simply add the user to ignore and be done with it.

mk  ·  4703 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Good to hear it. Some fine tuning might still be in order, and plans are in the works to make the 'discover' page more interesting. But, I'm getting comfy with it as well.
caio  ·  4703 days ago  ·  link  ·  
>BTW, it's nice to hear some feedback on dropping the 'all posts'.

I like the new light blue color. The gray one was hardly showing up on my LCD screen. I didn't used /all all that much, so it's nice to have a feature that changes my feed instead of a link. I have it set on "many" for now. Of the 34 posts on my feed, 4 are "external". I like that number. It's manageable.

I worry that, some day, there could be so much new posts even "some external posts" won't be manageable. I ain't always looking for new users though. And there's always "no external posts".

So, I like it! :)

mk  ·  4703 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Awesome. Let me know if that changes. I have mine set to 'many' as well, and right now I see 6. That's about as many as I want. If it increased, I'd probably switch to 'some', and that's 3 right now.
kleinbl00  ·  4703 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Why did some people suddenly turn green, by the way?
mk  ·  4703 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Folks that follow you, but you don't follow.

http://hubski.com/images/hubskilegend.png

Maybe you got some new followers, or you unfollowed some folk.

Oh. slow on the draw...

lessismore  ·  4703 days ago  ·  link  ·  
Is it just me or has there been an influx of new members in the hubski community over the past few days
mk  ·  4703 days ago  ·  link  ·  
I believe there has been. The influx is always a bit chunky.
kleinbl00  ·  4703 days ago  ·  link  ·  
No, here's what it is. I've been getting email after email about people following me but I don't follow other people until I see something interesting and a lot of them have been lurking, I guess. Now, all of a sudden, a whole bunch of them are posting.

Either that or you re-jiggered things so I'm seeing more people that I'm not following. I have been playing with the "some/many" thing a bit.

Appreciate the explanation.

thenewgreen  ·  4703 days ago  ·  link  ·  
According to the Hubski legend in the about section, this means that "oscar is following you". -Is this what you mean?

http://hubski.com/about

kleinbl00  ·  4703 days ago  ·  link  ·  
...oh. Is that new, or am I just not used to seeing Hubski at 1920x1080?

(on the work computer right now - popped head up to send email to producer - must now get back to pro tools)

thenewgreen  ·  4703 days ago  ·  link  ·  
nah, it's been there a while. Almost since inception. You're probably not used to it because everyone on Hubski follows you and therefore there was no contrast.

popularity has it's costs.