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comment by mk
mk  ·  3213 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Caucusing in Denver

Thanks for this. It's very interesting how much influence a few dozen motivated people can have.

I know you kid that Hillary is a Republican, but wait until the general election and she is going to seem far less so. Hillary is pro-single payer, pro-union, pro-choice, anti-TPP, and she will nominate liberal Supreme Court justices.

I'm not saying that I'd vote for Hillary over Bernie in the primary, but the Bern is working pretty hard to draw distinctions, and watch how he talks about Hillary once she clinches the nomination. He's a politician running for office.

There is the primary election, and then there is the general Election. Bernie is trying to win the primary election right now.





rob05c  ·  3213 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Hillary is pro-single payer

Nope. She wants to "extend Obamacare". Better than nothing, but it's a lot closer to nothing than most people think.

    pro-union

I don't believe it. It isn't possible to support unions while taking that much money from Big Business. Her campaign funders read like the Fortune 500. She says hedge fund traders hate her, a week after attending a fundraiser for them. Really now.

    pro-choice

Hillary supported neither abortion nor homosexuality until it became clear she wouldn't get votes without them. She declaims her abortion support with the statement it "needs to be safe and rare". Of course that's true, but declaiming it sounds disturbingly like Texas' "position". Regardless, abortion and gay marriage matter exponentially less since SCOTUS ruled on them both. The President has some power with them, but not remotely as much as with economic and foreign affairs.

    anti-TPP

Don't believe that either. She practically brokered it when she was Secretary of State. The Obama administration, which she emulates, heavily supports it. She came out "against" it when it became clear it would hurt her campaign. Just like every other stance she has. She'll support it the minute she's in office. Along with unaccountable drone war crimes, Big Business, Wall Street, flushing NASA down the toilet, and everything else Obama promised not to do.

    nominate liberal Supreme Court justices.

One of the very few things she'll do better than a Republican is nominate moderate Supreme Court justices.

Maybe I'm young and naïve, but I really don't see a difference in Hillary and the GOP clown car. I know it sounds crazy, but if it's Hillary vs GOP Stooge X, I'd rather see the Stooge take a swan-dive into feudalism, and hope it wakes the US up, than see Hillary continue the slow "boiling a frog" slide into feudalistic corporatocracy. I don't want to wake up twenty years from now in a feudal society, knowing I voted for it. I refuse to participate in a single-party system. I refuse to participate in an illusion of democracy.

ghostoffuffle  ·  3209 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Now, let's just take a deep breath and step back from the ledge for a second.

In regards to the above differences between Sanders v. Clinton: they really don't matter. There's a great quote by Harry Truman in regards to Eisenhower's transition from being a general to POTUS:

"He’ll sit here, and he’ll say, ‘Do this! Do that!’ And nothing will happen. Poor Ike—it won’t be a bit like the Army. He’ll find it very frustrating.”

Or, in Obama's parlance: the president can't just wave a wand and make it so. Executive power has always been, and always will be, constitutionally limited to a few arenas.

Pro-union? Anti-union? Who cares? That's a legislative issue (and often one at state-level), and at best a judicial one (we'll get there in a sec). Pro or anti single-payer? Who cares? Do you really think that the next president is going to have a snowball's chance of coming to office, dismantling the ACA and replacing it with... anything at all? Just thank your lucky stars and stripes that the ACA has been repeatedly upheld by the SCOTUS (still getting there, hold on).

Pro TPP? Anti-TPP? Now, trade agreements may fall within the presidential purview, so long as they're considered "executive agreements" and not treaties- i.e. not legally binding. (As an aside- even executive agreements fail if not seen as broadly beneficial to all parties involved, so any radical viewpoints tend to be tossed out as chaff.) The TPP? That's subject to ratification by Congress. Which means bipartisan, bicameral support even in the best of times, and these ain't those. So again, and with enthusiasm: Who cares.

Which brings us to judicial appointments. This is my big talking point every. Single. Time. the subject of executive power flies across my sight line. The president can make judicial appointments. That, besides war powers, is the singlemost important arena of executive influence. And not just SCOTUS appointments, but circuit court appointments, which conservatives have long since realized are just as important (if not more so) than SCOTUS appointments.

But those appointments are subject to congressional approval- or, as the last month has illustrated so obscenely, congressional consideration. On this note, I'll ask you to consider who between the two Democratic front-runners has the better chance of successfully nominating a Supreme Court judge.

There's another point or two I'd like to throw out into the universe re. judicial appointments, though. Let's say that appointments happen independently of congress, joy of joys. The SCOTUS is the last bastion of impartiality in the American political system. Yeah yeah, Scalia this Thomas that- historically, it has been nigh impossible to predict which way the SCOTUS will go on the grand majority of issues, big and small. Do you really want to be the cheerleader of seeding the bench with ideologues of any stripe over moderate practitioners of good jurisprudence? Is that what you want? A liberal court to totally undermine public trust in sound judicial conclusions?

And even if your answer is "yes": I'll point out that not only are we really bad at anticipating SCOTUS decisions, but presidents have been historically bad at anticipating SCOTUS political leanings. GHW Bush, for instance, put Thomas onto the bench, but he also put Souter there, anticipating him to be a "home run" for conservativism. One of those appointments "panned out," the other really, really didn't. History is peppered with examples like that one.

To whit: the President is powerful in precious few arenas. The greatest of which is SCOTUS appointments. Almost everything else is window dressing. You might not prefer Clinton's political leanings to Sanders, but do you really want a mook like Trump flailing around the White House appointing god-knows-who to the courts?

Are you really saying that you're planning on voting against Clinton (or abstaining, which is as good as voting against) in the general should she face Trump just to dance naked in front of the flaming wreckage?

Okay, step back towards the ledge. Look down. What do you see?

thenewgreen  ·  3213 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    She came out "against" it when it became clear it would hurt her campaign. Just like every other stance she has.
this is unfortunately all too true.

When marriage equality came to fruition and she changed her Twitter to be all about how much she had done for the cause I became upset. That's when she lost me for good. Fuck her. She's a staunch opportunist with little to no integrity.

As goobster said in a recent #meethubski it's easier to have integrity when you don't change your positions. I believe he said "consistency."

Well, Bernie has been consistent. The guy has lots of integrity.

goobster  ·  3213 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Why thanky for the name drop! But I also want to make sure to say that I fully support politicians changing their stance......... when presented with superior data.

Admittedly, it is hard to determine why a politician has changed their stance... changing morals of the electorate, influential lobbyists with seemingly convincing data, new scientific breakthroughs, institutional changes, or simply pandering to a new niche.

All that said, I expect Hillary would be happy to take any position someone paid her for.

Bernie would change his opinion once he saw a validated, peer-reviewed study in an independent academic journal, with other researchers having done their own analyses and come up with similar results, and three demonstrated successful test implementations of the plan.

(Oops. Sorry. Is my bias sticking out again?)

thenewgreen  ·  3213 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Oops. Sorry. Is my bias sticking out again?)
from where I stand, not at all.