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comment by thenewgreen
thenewgreen  ·  4334 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: [PDF] Dorner's Manifesto - Can evil be justified?

You are right in that people have an ability to justify some pretty horrible stuff, when it's convenient for them to hold onto their sense of identity. That said, this can be harmless when it comes to things like sneaking a cigarette and lying about it or doing some cocaine at a bachelor party. But child molestation and killing are a different thing. I'm not sure how one could internally justify that? There's a lot if space in between a white lie or misdameanor and killing/molesting. Where does someone go from being a shady character to being a sociopath? That's a good question.

I recall a while back there was an online questionnaire you could take to determine whether you were a sociopath. I'm on my phone or I'd find it.

Interesting question though. Chances are you know a sociopath.





kleinbl00  ·  4334 days ago  ·  link  ·  

OKCupid's version.

"I should mention now that this test is inherently flawed, due to the fact that someone who was a true sociopath or psychopath would not be telling the truth on an online test."

Apropos of nothing, that's a lot of typing for a phone.

    Where does someone go from being a shady character to being a sociopath? That's a good question.

That's a clinical question. If I call you shady, that's an opinion. If I call you a sociopath, that's an Axis II personality disorder characterized by at least three of the following:

1) Callous unconcern for the feelings of others;

2) Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations;

3) Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, though having no difficulty in establishing them;

4) Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence;

5) Incapacity to experience guilt or to profit from experience, particularly punishment;

6) Markedly prone to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior that has brought the person into conflict with society.

thenewgreen  ·  4334 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Turns out, I'm almost a sociopath... and I may have aids.

b_b  ·  4334 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I scored just to the right of average (48%), but I don't know which way is worse. This test made me curious about what other personality disorders I may or may not have. I found this alcoholism test. I failed (or passed?). But curiously, the one question the don't ask is, "How much/often do you drink?" I suppose that's incidental. I probably would have failed harder but I answered "no" to the question of whether people at work judge me. That's an assumption that could definitely be untrue, especially when I come in hungover with moderate regularity.

kleinbl00  ·  4334 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Well, hypochondria for one... ;-)

My father used to drink a half rack of Coors Light and about five shots of rum a day. He took a test recommended him by his insurance company, which determined that he wasn't an alcoholic, he was self-medicating chronic depression. It isn't how much you drink, it's why.

b_b  ·  4334 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Haha. Definitely not a hypochondriac. I haven't been to a doctor since I separated my shoulder two years ago, and given that I could see my clavicle bulging through my skin I thought it was a reasonable time to visit the doc's office. But even then I hesitated.

The alcoholism test was more for fun. Whiskey and beer are important to me, but I fully agree that enjoying a buzz doesn't mean you have a problem.

thenewgreen  ·  4333 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    enjoying a buzz doesn't mean you have a problem.
-oh good. I'll consider that enough validation to continue on. Thanks pal. See you in Scotland!
thenewgreen  ·  4334 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Apropos of nothing, that's a lot of typing for a phone.
-voice to text, only way to comment on Hubski with my phone. I've got it down to where I rarely have to make a correction.

Am I a sociopath?

    1) Callous unconcern for the feelings of others;
-How is this measured? What's callous to one person may seem perfectly reasonable to another. Some peoples feelings are a little too feely, if you know what I mean. -I may be a sociopath...

    2) Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations;
-Again, seems subjective. Some rules and norms are just counter to human desire and some just make no sense. -Crap... I may be a danger to society.

    3) Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, though having no difficulty in establishing them;
-This is the first one that makes me feel safe in that I'm not a sociopath based on this criteria. I have friendships from the age of 5.

    4) Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence;
I'm never violent. But some things really do frustrate the crap out of me. -I'm safe on this one too.

    5) Incapacity to experience guilt or to profit from experience, particularly punishment;
-I wish. Guilt consumes me at times. I always feel really badly if I've hurt someones feelings. I learn my lessons. -I'm good here.

    6) Markedly prone to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior that has brought the person into conflict with society.
I think I take responsibility when it is warranted. -Good here too.

phew... turns out I'm probably not going to go postal after all.

Do you know any diagnosed sociopaths, or anyone you suspect of being one?

wiffleaxe  ·  4332 days ago  ·  link  ·  

You may be interested in a This American Life episode called The Psychopath Test. It discusses the PCL-R (Psychopathy Check List—Revised) and how it's used in criminal justice systems. For many years, the creator of the test - which was incredibly accurate in predicting likelihood of reoffending - refused to share it with law enforcement. When it was finally published officially, and started being given to prisoners, it was considered objective science and became used as a reason to not give people parole:

    The political reality, Carbone says, is this. In California, not only the board, but the governor must sign off on every parole granted. And there's just no benefit to being seen as soft on crime. So if a psychologist gives a bad report because of a high score on the psychopath test, even if the board or the governor wanted to set that person free, there is, as Carbone points out, no political cover if the prisoner re-offends.

It tells the story of one specific prisoner who scored high on the test. It's a very interesting episode.

thenewgreen  ·  4332 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I recall that episode and you are right, it was very interesting. I'm a big fan of the show. Thanks for the link, it has been a while I should give it a re-listen.

kleinbl00  ·  4334 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    -How is this measured? What's callous to one person may seem perfectly reasonable to another.

Ahhh, but Grasshopper - you write this from a lay perspective, that of one looking for wiggle room. A clinical diagnosis of Antisocial Personality Disorder (behavioral sociopathy, as opposed to personality sociopathy or psychopathy) is performed by trained, credentialed professionals who can expect their evaluations to be peer-reviewed. And, as criminal and civil law are tied into DSM/ICD10 definitions, "callous unconcern" becomes a legal definition, one subject to full legal review. As such, it isn't a "is he or isn't he" discussion, it's a "what stands up in court" discussion which varies state to state, city to city, country to country, etc. Eight months ago I served on that rarest of legal birds - I was foreman for a mental health jury. There are only about 200 in the world, and the one I was at - the only one in the world that allows for juries, they said - isn't in session more than a couple times a year. Me and eleven other people had to discuss whether or not the defendent was "grossly incapacitated" as defined by two sentences provided us in our jury instructions.

"How is this measured?"

Extensively.

    Do you know any diagnosed sociopaths, or anyone you suspect of being one?

We were sitting down to dinner with Bob and Carol (not their names) for what was always an interesting, pyrotechnic meal. The appetizers were late and Bob and Carol were sniping at each other. At one point Carol said "well, my shrink back then said I was a sociopath but what the fuck does she know?" My wife and I mutually heard Ally McBeal record scratches across reality, but the meal continued unabated. My wife knew Carol because they were both in school together; when Bob came to me six months later to ask for marital advice I advised him to divorce her. We lost touch with Carol but Bob is still a friend. He's happily married with two kids in Maryland. So far as I know, Carol had no criminal history outside of a couple drug busts and charges of prostitution, which were dropped.

Of all the people I know or have known, three of them are killers. The only one I'm still Facebook friends with had extenuating circumstances; the deal went bad and they ended up chasing him across the desert in a pickup truck and shooting at him. He managed to get out of it by firing a 44 magnum through his rear window and hitting the driver in the face. The other two are bad dudes.

thenewgreen  ·  4334 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Interesting stuff KB. I don't know if I know any sociopaths, but there are certain people I highly suspect based on the criteria.

Off to take my daughter to the circus, I recall loving it as a kid but I'm wondering if my knowledge of how the animals are treated will disturb my experience? The sociopath in me says "no", but the angel on my shoulder already feels guilty for having purchased the tickets.

My wife's coming too, I'd be shocked if she didn't end up crying. I don't think she knows what she's in for. As I recall they use "whips".

kleinbl00  ·  4334 days ago  ·  link  ·  

And now you know why cirque de soleil makes the big bux.

thenewgreen  ·  4334 days ago  ·  link  ·  

People were boycotting outside, the tears started before we even got to the building. We ended up leaving and going to the park. Much better idea anyways, as it is 65° out, sunny and the perfect day really.

insomniasexx  ·  4334 days ago  ·  link  ·  

We all have tendencies to separate pieces of our identities from certain people. My mother doesn't know the loud hot messy insom and my boyfriend rarely sees the super professional side of me. My workmates don't know I spend heaps of time on online communities or about my sex life.

Even though these are little examples that are harmless, it can be taken to the extreme. In the case of Dorner and pedos it's just separating pieces of their identity. What makes it scary is their ability to manipulate what you see in them. ie: you know they did 'x' but you see 'y'.

thenewgreen  ·  4333 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    We all have tendencies to separate pieces of our identities from certain people.
That's so true. The people at work don't really know about Hubski or that I'm a musician. The people in my band or even you guys on Hubski don't know much about my day job. I like it that way. When my creative side and my business side collide it feels really strange. Once my boss asked me to record a song for our company. I almost puked in my mouth, the idea repulsed me so much. Just the thought of it made me feel dirty. I try very hard to keep those things separate.

Otherwise, I'm pretty much the same guy for everyone. Though there are a couple of friends that definitely know me best.