I haven't frequented Hubski for a while, but it is the first place that popped into my mind where I could write this text, so be it.
Today I watched a news piece about Gush Etzion, which is a cluster of settlements between Hebron and Bethlehem. It is an area where it often comes to clashes and problems between settlers and palestinians, but also for some surprising co-existence. The news piece showed several interviews with settlers who are in good contact with local palestinians. They cooperate, trade and work one for the other. A sight that is rather rare, especially in these hard times,
All the interviewed settlers, including the rabbai Hanan Schlesinger had two things in common, they all very adamantly believe that the land of palestine/the holy land/Canaan is the jewish land, it belongs to them. Interestingly though, they also believe that arabs and jews should have absolute equal rights and recognize the occupation as immoral.
They are talking about a solution, about peace that did not cross my mind before. And it is the solution where one side surrenders.
No. I cannot accept this. It is hard for me to accept. It is hard to accept that, we, the palestinians, should surrender and "lose". But maybe it is the solution. It is not the first time that I think about one land for everyone. But in my version of the solution, Israel would change from being the "jewish" state to be called the Democratic State of Israel, or Israel and Palestine, like Bosnia and Herzegovina or Trinidad and Tobago. I know this is a different situation and can't be compared, but it is possible, I thought it is.
The vast majority of arabs are for a two-state solution, Some people even think that the whole land would be "palestine" again. Saying out loud that you support a one-state solution is not easy but made sense to me. Break down the wall and live happily ever after...
However, seeing the israeli-one-state, with palestinians as a minority, under the israeli flag is new to me. It did not settle yet, it stirs me up inside, but maybe we have to surrender. The occupation is eating us from the inside. We are raised to hate by both our families and the occupation and it will not stop. I feel horrible for even thinking that. I feel like a traitor. But maybe we have to, for the sake of our people.
A common theme of my psychedelic experience is something I call "the wanderer". In it, I lose my identity. I lose my name, I become genderless, I become detached from anything that binds me and all I am is a wanderer, walking the roads, meeting other wanderers, without judgement, without names, without identities and I feel whole.
Maybe it is time to lay down my identity. The palestinian, the polish, the german, the israeli, the polyamorous, the scientist, the juggler and just be blank.
---
Thank you for reading.
Cumol
Hey! I appreciate you taking the time to write this. I have a lot a lot a lot A LOT of thoughts on Israel/Palestine as a Jewish person who studies the Middle East. Honestly, I too would prefer a religion-free resolution to the one/two state solution issue, but the identity of a Jewish state is central to Zionism, so I don't think that's a fight that anyone is going to win, especially while the ultra Orthodox have a chokehold on Parliament or while the rest of world Jewry is so invested in the "fate" of Israel so to speak. Going through the unlearning process is really hard and takes a lot out of the people doing the unlearning. It was really easy to absorb all of the messages thrown at me growing up and when I lived in Israel for a short period of time. And then one day the radical notion that whoa Palestinians are people too and your elders don't always know what's best hit me, and I've been working through a decade and a half of shit to get to where I am now. That's something that has to happen on a large scale for us to get anywhere meaningful in this process, but because it's hard people don't want to. And that's a shitty excuse but you see it everywhere. This is just me throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks so I hope it makes sense
I believe myself to be an open person. Above-average open with rather radical thoughts when compared to other people from my home town. Still, this step, or thinking was extremely hard for me. I had to cry. It was so intense, it felt like I have lost a loved one. If I think about the fact that many people who wouldn't even consider thinking into that direction need to go through this for things to change, I become very pessimistic to see a change in the next generations. But maybe I am judging people again, underestimating them.
I one hundred percent understand that. It was really hard for me to take a step back and realize that I've been taught bigoted things by people who strongly professed NOT to be bigoted. And it was very hard to separate those two things.
Well I just signed up for Hubski, and this is the most validating post/thread I've seen on a site in a long time! Thank you Cumol and arguewithatree. Also, being Jewish, although removed from the tension in the Diaspora, I can relate 100% with this last bit. I've come to these crossroads myself now being isolated from my usual community realizing the irony in being taught compassion with exception. It makes sense to me as well seeing no swift resolution in sight. Though, I want to say that your solution proposed makes sense to me, too; more so than others. That said, Thank you both for sharing. It's refreshing to see/read of similar mind. EDIT: Last sentence sounded weird to me; rephrased it.That's something that has to happen on a large scale for us to get anywhere meaningful in this process, but because it's hard people don't want to.
is where I guess we all stand now.
> just signed up > long time ??? ;) welcome. Lovely to have you
Thanks!!! :D Re: "just signed up" vs. "long time" The atmosphere around the posts on Hubski is fresh for me based on my years of lurking on the internet. I was expecting/looking for something similar to what I found in /r/TrueReddit. Seeing the depth that users go into on their own that gets to the global feed is uplifting.
This piece is very moving, Cumol. Thank you for contributing these thoughts. We often talk on IRC about "identity" -- what we cling to as forming our identity; what is learned and can be unlearned. Who are we? There's a truth to the experience of the "wanderer." A terrifying truth.
Enjoyed reading this. I will point out -- someone's got to pay for it. Currently, the standard of living in the area known as Palestine is much, much lower than that in Israel "proper." (Even Palestinians living within Israel have a comparatively high standard of living, as you probably know.) Iff a one-state solution or any other sort of synthesis is implemented, it will be reasonable I think for the new citizens to expect their SoL to trend toward Israel's established level. That will be very, very difficult. Imagine if the United States annexed Haiti (peacefully, this time). In that instance, since we already send aid money to Haiti and there is obviously less racial tension, it would be much easier than the situation in the Middle East -- and it would still probably fail (witness Puerto Rico's financial crisis). You may, of course, say that money is no object in the face of a humane solution. That would make you a utopian in the coinage of international relations. True? Maybe.... comme ci comme ça.
In addition to the raw population numbers this is an additional problem. Not much money was invested into the palestinian infrastructure in the past decades. However, a lot is happening lately because of large donations and projects from around the world. This is at least what I have noticed while visiting there the past few years. Even in the case of Germany after the fall of the wall things didn't turn out that good. To support eastern germany to keep up to the west, Germany introduced the "solidarity tax". A percentage of west german's income goes to the support of east german infrastructure. It did help rebuild the east but for many west germans it didn't seem right, especially not in the past 5-10 years. Even though the standard of living went up, some things are still not fine. There is still the differentiation between an "ossi" (eastern german) and the "wessi" and the majority of right-winged and racist movements originate from the deep east... I wonder what the best solution would be, maybe we can learn from past mistakes in similar constellations.
Badged for visibility cause I have a lot of thoughts that I haven't formed cohesively yet and I'd love for Hubski to argue and debate this topic.
Revisiting here before I'm liable to forget exactly what I wanted to type within the next couple days. This is in a way popping back into the conversation from my own side, once more - if anything, a reflection at best. I may have well been a clipped bird before reading here. At the time, I had an understanding of just how backwards what I was being taught sounded, but hadn't reached a solid conclusion of what alternatives could possibly look like. In tandem to logging in for the first time, reading this left an impression to complete the mold of my newfound beliefs. You see, from the inside looking out of the Jewish world, it seems as though as a substitute for the lack of actually practicing religion, we've adopted Zionism as our go-to position with relation to our identity - easy example being Birthright, where any Jew up to the age of 26 may go on a free trip to Israel with other Jews and go to all the tourist trips, learn about their ancestors struggles dating back millennia, and for some, witness their first encounter with Hebrew (initially auto-corrected to "traps," ha.); which, in my view, further alludes to the notion of nationalism, making Judaism as an ethnicity an easier idea to propose, but I digress. Compound Zionistic-driven identity with (in my experience) Jewish parents seeking to foster an amount of pride in their children's' heritage, we grow up taught the belief that Israel is our birthright and ours alone, period. All of this was brought up a couple nights ago when a family friend (and member of the tribe) moved back into town. It felt oddly stereotypical when we delved into what it meant to be a Jew in this day and age (a time old question through millennia after millennia of persecution and assimilation to defer the former) as he, my brother and I sat around noshing on tacos and cervezas, hehe. This friend, "J", has earned himself a bachelors and masters with regard to religion - specifically Judaism. Needless to say, it was a very, very interesting discussion to end up calling me back here (Ended up throwing him and my brother a plug for Hubski as well, haha). J brought up a point that I will not forget, adding onto the Judo moves in what I see as a destructive, self-fulfilling rhetoric my peers don't seem to see. Throughout our span as a people, all our prayers were focused (and even moreso now for reasons stated above) were focused on raising up/upholding a nation-state we've yearned for so long. . . at the price of stomping others out of it. I can understand where it seems to be a lost cause at this point, but if I'll be damned, the only logical solution to me seems as what you've brought up. I guess this ended up as a bit more of an #offmychest comment then anything else, but if there's anything worth anything here, this has made an impact and brought some real clarity to someone on the other side (of both situation and the Pond). Bringing this to light has entered more of my conversations to disarm hostile beliefs when I enter my own circle of peers State side. Although, I gotta say on the end of how I identify with my Jewish community, it really can be disenfranchising with a whole body of people brought up to one belief. Oye. For what ever it's worth. This is me saying thank you. EDIT: Went back in with links to some of the ideas I was referencing at the time so it wasn't spouting all the poop from my hands. Here's a link to the different beginnings of Zionism for any interested. None of them seemed to align quite so easily, but their affects on Israel and its culture can be easily traced with a bit of background.
That ... sounds better than the status quo, and is at least imaginable. But who are you going to trust that the state will protect, not persecute, the minority? Of course, if the state's protection disappears, would that be any worse than the status quo? I'm not personally involved enough to be able to answer that.
This is a very valid point. Currently, the state is extremely right-winged (compared to past decades) and it is hard to imagine it being capable of accepting this option as a solution because there is still the fear that such a solution would lead to a the loss of the jewish majority. A simple calculation, 3.3 million in the west bank, 1.7 million inside Israel and 1.8 million in the gaza strip. Without taking the possibility of the refugees returning (which will be the next problem to solve), we have 6.8 million arabs vs. 6.5 million jewish israelis. Any democratic state, no matter how you turn it, will not be able to treat more than 50% of its population as a minority... This solution is by no means ripe, but many of the arguments of the current right wing ("This is our land!!!") would be levered out, which would make the people on both sides maybe question their enemy stereotype and restructure the political field where the majority is in favor of this solution and only a minority is seeking hatred and destruction.