On Saturday I saw a Proud Boy walking down the street in my little town on the edge of Seattle. He was in the Proud Boy uniform: the too-tight grey slacks, black sneakers, black bomber jacket, with the red arm ribbon and yellow decoration thingie.
He honestly looked like Hard Right Jay from Letterkenny; a total stereotype.
I should have stopped, gotten out of my car, and kicked the ever-loving shit out of the fucker. We had a war about this... pretty much everyone was there and agreed upon how these people should be treated...
But I didn't. And now this fuckstick feels like a champion for waving his flag of hatred in my community... whose Mayor, by the way, is Latino.
I shall not hold back next time. I've got a squeaky clean record and can handle some principled disobedient behavior, if that's what it's gonna take.
I also want to punch the right winger shouting "death to the Arabs" at football game. I also want to punch the security people at the airport for "randomly" checking me (100% of the time), humiliating me, making me feel like second class. But I am an Arab in a Jewish country. I am second class, now even by (law) [https://www.vox.com/world/2018/7/31/17623978/israel-jewish-nation-state-law-bill-explained-apartheid-netanyahu-democracy]. I will get every punch back tenfolds. The only way for me to punch back is by living, continuing my path, succeeding. My mere existence is a punch to them, and that is good like that. Can you afford punching a nazi? Do it. Can you do it in a way you minimize damage to yourself? Even better.
Oof. I have a lot of knowledge of the three cultures clashing in the middle east, and that situation is just so fucked from every perspective. And nothing can progress as long as Bibi is still in power. I'm so sorry for what they have done to your status. The whole point is to get you to leave on your own... and I have a hard time arguing against that exact thing... what can one person do? At some point, doesn't a person get to the point where they must consider their own well-being and lifetime, and just go somewhere else to try to make something new? Ugh. There are no easy answers. I'm sorry, my friend.
Hey... I can't answer for Cumol. I asked a similar question to a Gazan working on the farm with me in IL, though. Whether the language barrier, or didn't want to delve into it at the time notably, how fucked the irony in an American Jew asking that in the first place, the simple answer was family. This is where they lived. Whether that extended to generations past seemed ambiguous in the tone.At some point, doesn't a person get to the point where they must consider their own well-being and lifetime, and just go somewhere else to try to make something new?
Yeah. I worked with a friend of mine on his books about the region and the troubles there. And then I married a Jew with a very pro-Israel father, who isn't blind to the myriad issues there, but is nonetheless very pro-Israel. I know so many families who have left their home countries, and relocated somewhere with greater opportunity and fewer chances to die. And they miss their home countries, but they love their adopted ones, whether it is Sweden, Canada, Britain, USA, or Australia. The world is a big place. Moving to another part of it is a big decision... but so is choosing to stay. At some point, the math just has to tip the scales... but that point is going to be different for every individual. No easy answers, that's for sure.
He's not a Nazi. He might wish he was, but he's not. Also, consider that he could be any number of un-punchable things, like an undercover cop, or some dude that is dying inside and looking for a way out. Punching him will not lead to less proud boys, and that's the goal, right? How about instead of punching him, say: "Hey man. Are you a Proud Boy? Yes? Well, I just want you to know that I think you're wrong. I hope someday that you think so too. Otherwise, have a good day, man." People aren't Proud Boys because their lives leading up to it were swell.
This is my usual mode, honestly, with anyone I think has the wrong end of the stick. But these people KNOW they have the wrong end of the stick, and wield it proudly. Their ignorance and hate is their sole purpose. And - in my not-so-humble opinion - that is not compatible with community or society. If a cliff face was eroding away, and we were losing a park with a beautiful view, what would we do? Reinforce the cliff. Plant deep-rooted plants that would help stabilize the soil. Maybe even create a seawall to slow/weaken the erosive force of the tides. Protecting our community is no different. Whether he is crying out for help, or has some other mental condition is immaterial. He has chosen to wrap himself in this flag precisely because it is a signal of hate that everyone is familiar with, so he can walk around "being nice", and be attacked by someone like me and claim to be the victim, when the real victim are my non-white neighbors and friends. I'm a left-coast leftie live-and-let-live liberal... but there are limits, and we need to protect those. ... somehow ... But violence? Ugh. I hate the idea... but it may come down to that, in the end.
Actually, that's very much important compared to someone with a "sound mind" who adopts similar behavior. It means they've fallen into a hole, either through vulnerability or carelessness, and they could genuinely be helped out of it with the right amount of effort. Someone who's not vulnerable though? Well, they still need help out of the hole, but chances are, they probably dug it, so getting them out would be a lot harder. But it didn't "come down to that, in the end" because you didn't know anything about the guy and didn't talk to him, or nothing. You saw someone wrapped in symbolism walking in broad daylight and your immediate reaction was anger. Which, that's okay. That would be my reaction first too. You're human, I'm human, we respond to stimulus. The thing is though, like I said, there's a lot of helpful, legal ways to combat this kind of stuff. If it was me, first thing I'd do is check with my community leaders, such as the city council, the police, religious and school leaders, etc. and see if they're aware there's potentially a local chapter for a hate group. Then depending on what happens, I'd go from there. Me personally, I'd probably just give said leaders a heads up, and allow more experienced and knowledgeable people take over. There's tons of groups and resources out there for this kind of thing and tons of ways to illicit healthy, community responses. I know, because hate groups are kind of a thing where I'm at and the communities around here have done wonderful jobs handling situations as they pop up. But bro. Again. Rash decisions made in anger almost always end poorly.Whether he is crying out for help, or has some other mental condition is immaterial.
But violence? Ugh. I hate the idea... but it may come down to that, in the end.
Here in the Pacific Northwest, the majority of these people are bused in for publicity stunts. They plan an event, bring in a bunch of vulgar nazi shitweasels from other states, who then claim to be "local" but can't find their way around town, or know nothing about the area. If there were a local pod of evil, they'd stick out like a sore thumb. This is a really chill place. And it's why they know it is safe to walk the streets here with impunity, flying their flag of hate in the faces of the people it hurts most. Which is why they need to be punched. But yeah... punching rarely solves anything, unless it happens in a ring... :-)
Unfortunately, they're everywhere. (Edit: A second article that's more recent.) It's just, unless it's for show, you usually don't see these guys walking in broad daylight showing their colors. That kind of stuffed is usually saved for rallies. Do me a favor. When you have a few minutes to kill sometime, browse this list of hate groups and realize there's a pattern to a lot of the names they use. A lot of them are innocuous yet often patriotic or religious sounding in nature. You see one of those names in the wild, unless you know what you're looking at, you wouldn't think twice about it. That's how a lot of these groups act, just under the radar, using coded speech and imagery to attract people in the know. It's not until they want to be known that they let themselves known, and with vague names like they run with, they're often soon forgotten unless they leave a lasting impression in your memory. Like I said, they're everywhere, and like I said elsewhere in this thread, they're often sly.If there were a local pod of evil, they'd stick out like a sore thumb. This is a really chill place.
Thanks for the links. I am well-versed on hate groups and the masks they hide behind. It's something I was responsible for tracking, at one point, for a specific community of people. In fact, it's what finally got the city police of my parents' town, to evict squatters on their street. One of the cars had a window sticker that seemed like it was for a skateboard company, or a band, or whatever. When I looked at it I immediately recognized it, told my parents, they told the police (who had an open file on this house and the occupants) and two days later the house was empty. Apparently the police visited and let them know what's up, and the squatters vacated that night. Fun and games. :(
100% topical. Keying off of the same notion, I noticed you didn’t share this post, goobster. I don’t know if that equates to a ‘didn’t read,’ so I copying this here for posterity. Also: writing my take up b/w classes. Will post in my comment so as not to co-opt this chain.Actually, that's very much important compared to someone with a "sound mind" who adopts similar behavior. It means they've fallen into a hole, either through vulnerability or carelessness, and they could genuinely be helped out of it with the right amount of effort. Someone who's not vulnerable though? Well, they still need help out of the hole, but chances are, they probably dug it, so getting them out would be a lot harder.
Maybe August 2016 I was waiting in line at LAX. Which, if you've never done it, don't; it's a sea of ill-prepared humanity attempting to queue up for inspection by the most hateful, jaded and bitter people on earth. Anyway, way in the back of that queue was a fat kid from the Inland Empire wearing a MAGA hat. He couldn't keep his eyes off the crowd. He was meeting everyone's gaze. There is nothing that little shit wanted more than to own the libs. He wanted someone to validate his hatred of Los Angeles, that liberal shithole, so that he could tell all his buddies tales of daring-do and rhetorical mastery. He needed someone to jump-start his self-started career as a crusader for Real America. A couple people gave him dirty looks. Most people ignored him. Because yeah. We get it. Your values are anathema to us and ours are to you. Ain't nobody there gonna gain any wisdom from any interaction 'cuz we've all got our spurs on. What did he take from his adventure at LAX? Probably that the burgers are expensive and TSA is surly. Maybe that we were all too pussy to take on him, a chubby 16-year-old from Indio or whatever. That's fine. You cannot destroy ideas through violence. This is something the Right has never understood while the Left grasps intrinsically - ideas are destroyed through parody and mockery and the minute you have to stop and get out of your car to engage, you've already lost. Your beef isn't that he's dressing like a Proud Boy it's that he's thinking like a Proud Boy and the more persecuted he is, the more he'll cling to it. Mormons don't send their kids on Mission in order to recruit more mormons. They send their kids on Mission to clinch them as Mormons because there is nothing that makes you feel as alone as having the world turn on you. Spend a few months having doors slammed in your face and you will know who your true friends are. A lone Proud Boy in Seattle doesn't need his ass kicked. He needs to have coffee with a black drag queen.
i've kinda been following your comments around today but i just wanted to jump on the LAX hate a tsa guy groped me when i was going through security, in that he snapped at me for doing something wrong (i took my shoes off when i didn't need to, or something similarly grave (which i had learned to do when i exited LAX initially when i flew in), and then grabbed at my breasts while giving me a patdown my initial version of this comment had more "kinda"s and "?"s in it because i have difficulty asserting that experience apparently but it made me deeply uncomfortable and was the first time i ever felt threatened in the way that women feel threatened, not including catcalling from cars. i just remember walking away feeling really angry and greasy fuck em
I don't honestly care what's in his head. He's probably just a sad little internet troll looking for attention. But he has wrapped himself in a flag of hate, and is walking up and down the street in my town. He's committed to the iconography to elicit a reaction from genuinely nice people. In Germany, people go to jail for showing the swastika. They've drawn the line clearly and definitively, and enforce it vigorously. Our Constitution doesn't allow for that; but simple manners and society requires us to enforce our standards in other ways. Sadly, the actions available to an individual, on the spot, without preparation or tools, are limited. And violence is easy. Yuck. "...Your beef isn't that he's dressing like a Proud Boy it's that he's thinking like a Proud Boy ..."
An assault and battery charge might be harder on you than you think. Plus, you never know if the cop is going to feel more sympathetic for a beaten nazi than an american hero. You do you, but a punched nazi will get right up and continue being a nazi - you can't punch another one from a holding cell. I am here for self-defense. Sometimes, the best self-defense is to throw the first punch. However. Not all of us can punch Nazis.I am here for the anti-fascists who’ve made it their mission to stop Nazi violence with violence. I’m generally a pacifist, but when people are already hurting and killing us, I really have no problem with meeting their violence with necessary force.
Violence won't get you anywhere as it will harden their beliefs and force them more into their "tribe" (because humans are tribal anyways). I would suggest listening to this: https://www.npr.org/2018/09/24/651052970/how-a-rising-star-of-white-nationalism-broke-free-from-the-movement. Black's new friends invited him over for Shabbat dinner week after week. Gradually, he began to rethink his views. After much soul-searching, a 22-year-old Black wrote an article, published by the Southern Poverty Law Center in 2013, renouncing white nationalism. Also, if someone is looking for a fight like these guys the best way to counter it is to be kind because they don't expect it at all.It was only after he began attending New College of Florida that Black began to question his own point of view. Previously, he had been home-schooled, but suddenly he was was exposed to people who didn't share his views, including a few Jewish students who became friends.
I loved that NPR piece. And there are a number of those kinds of stories that cover the "being exposed to alternate views/cultures broadens mind of wicked little fucker" angle. I just don't think these people deserve my time. They aren't worth the effort, honestly.
Awesome. Subject yourself to the total meat grinder that is the American Court System and give a Nazi the perfect opportunity to play the martyr card. Come on man. I love the passion, but you know better. When you get angry at just the sight of something, you gotta take a moment, breathe, and think with your head and your heart, not your initial gut reaction. Acting out in anger for a sense of satisfaction isn't justice, especially if it only leads to making things worse. You didn't punch a Nazi, and even though it doesn't feel like it, that's a good thing.
Yeah. I know. But that passivity and fear of legal repercussion is what allows these people to thrive, recruit, and threaten my fellow Americans with impunity. And that aggression will not stand, man! (Except maybe when I fail to stand up for those who can't stand for themselves.)
No. I know. And I'm right there with you in spirit (just not in action). Take heart that there are a lot of good people out there pushing back against these kinds of guys through all sorts of outreach programs and education programs and victim relief programs. They're not as viscerally satisfying as clocking a man, but they're a lot more impactful and definitely a lot more legal. So there's that, if it helps. Just as importantly though, is you're a good man and you can't focus on doing good things weighed down both by the courts and by the knowledge that some guy gets clocked and then uses it to seemingly give himself the upper hand. Nazis are sly little punks. They know how to play the game.
I hope you don’t take this post down within the next 24 hours. I’ve got a bit to chomp at here that I would love to flesh out... but an outline due calling my name before I can go full keyboard warrior (in a thoughtful and compassionate way). Will update later tonight.
Thank you for your patience. So, I spent about 30 min writing out an outline for this post rather than the outline due for class to save for today. At this point, (1) most comments here have similar vein or (2) through your replies, I've noticed there's information that you are versed in. So, I'll spare the ink and reference what has been offered in the thread already. Punching him could just make you and your family a target at worst. It'd also just be another case of trying to make a dent in a bucket of water. Names and faces change, but the hate stays the same. These you've come around to by some measure based on the replies thus far. You're a writer by profession? Fashioning, dressing, and delivering ideas are your strength. Wanna not see that crap in the streets anymore? Give ammo the to those who do think these people deserve the time of day. Add to the body of literature encouraging the denouncement and conversion of Nazis are worth the effort. In the meantime, we always have Call of Duty: Nazi Zombies mode if you wanna safely let loose. Last, just want to throw a virtual two thumbs up and a smile at this.(And PSH! Take a post down? Nah. I think BEFORE I post, and stand by my words.)
if you can get away with it (either by not being identified or by getting off with something minor), you should - if you can't, it's not worth it punch for the people that can't
That occurred to me; Maybe it was a set up, and his friends were filming from under cover. A deliberate act of provocation in a liberal and open community. Like when Alex Jones came to Seattle and got a coffee dumped on him: