Great Post! Even as a devoutly religious person, I think you're squarely spot on with several of your observations. For example, this is a fantastic thought, and eloquently put: I don't necessarily agree with this point: Science is AWESOME - but it is also flawed. Not necessarily the process, but we make mistakes in our assumptions all the time. The prevailing winds of science change constantly. I'm not saying this to discount science - or say we should only live by faith - but simply that science is not perfect either. In our quest for answers through the scientific method, we make mistakes and assumptions that only come to light later. I love this: I have seen in my life and in the life of others when, instead of religion inspiring us to dream the impossible, it has stifled progression. For example - some people disagree with ALL stem cell research because SOME stem cells come from embryos. That to me is sad. So much that could be good for humans is stifled because of the vocal religious beliefs of some. Religion should inspire us to seek out ALL knowledge. You discuss the New Atheist. Perhaps I'm one of the new believers. I believe in a God that wants me to... no... EXPECTS me to learn all I can, to seek out knowledge and do as much good for as many as possible. I guess this is my way of saying - I don't think religion (and I come at that from a decidedly Christian angle) and science need to be mutually exclusive. I believe they can coexist. Science has explained so much - and perhaps in a few years it will explain everything. Until then, I suppose I will hold to exploration and faith. Thanks again for a great post.Can religion as we have come to know it exist in a world of Gods? Or is the real “end” of religion the beginning of something heaven-like?
Fundamental cause 2. is gone and isn’t coming back. Sciences explanatory reach is here to stay. Religion will continue to lose all ground when it comes to explanation.
On a personal level, I feel as though religion has always been a dream of our species. We have used religion to dream of the impossible. As I state above, we dream of the infinite, but it has always been far out of our grasp.
"Science is AWESOME - but it is also flawed. Not necessarily the process, but we make mistakes in our assumptions all the time. The prevailing winds of science change constantly." Your hypothesis on science is flawed, and rejected by observation. As Sean Carroll notes, "The Laws Underlying The Physics of Everyday Life Are Completely Understood". [ http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2010/09/23/the-laws.../ ] Science, while revisable, converges on robust facts and theories. It is too late to imagine "mistakes", and the gaps are gone too. We now know that the universe _must_ be a result of a spontaneous process, that independent of that there _can't_ be any soul et cetera. And as for the deist cop out, the cosmology analysis now stands between multiverses, so physics is local, or naturalness, so physics is forced. Eg magic can't slip in there either. Game over! Of course, it will take magic believers decades to get to grips with the facts. For example, officially the catholic church has no magic agency at the moment, because their latest bid was that it wouldn't have to create a universe but it absolutely had to create a unique human breeder pair. So that agency was found false 2011 from sequencing the neanderthal nuclear genome. And "remarkably", that church hasn't acknowledged their problem with truth yet. As per the usual scam practice.
Only a Sith deals in absolutes. :-) Seriously though, I'll disagree. You say revision, I say mistake. Science doesn't explain everything. Neither does religion.It is too late to imagine "mistakes", and the gaps are gone too. We now know that the universe _must_ be a result of a spontaneous process, that independent of that there _can't_ be any soul et cetera.
Science doesn't deal in absolutes, it deals in uncertainty and quality - testing against uncertainty beyond reasonable doubt. From a standpoint of uncertainty and quality we can observe that the gaps are gone. Thus the theological/religious game against observable knowledge is over. "You say revision, I say mistake." Context? I didn't say "revision". "Science doesn't explain everything. Neither does religion." Religion explains nothing, now that it can't predict 'gaps'. Science is in the business to make predictions on everything that is (the universe), but obviously it doesn't claim to predict everything. That is not a bug, it is a feature - compare with how religion tried the latter.
You have no idea how happy that makes me. I wanted to make a post about the evolution of religion that was true to my thoughts on the issue, but at the same time something that could speak to someone of faith. I hope this is what religion is evolving into. I have met a lot of people who are starting to speak of God in such terms. I was in fact quite moved by the way Malala Yousafzai used God in her recent U.N. speech. I think it falls in line with Daniel Dennett's theory about the adaptability of religion. As humans demand high morals, higher levels of evidence for belief, etc. God must evolve to accommodate our new standards. See convo with washedup in this thread. I think we both agreed that, due to the nature of our universe, problems and mystery are infinite. Interesting to know your thoughts. Keep your faith if it is an important part of yourself. If it doesn't get in the way of your scientific curiosity or your love of humanity then what harm can it do? I am only antagonistic towards those that use faith to justify hate and reduce world knowledge.Evan as a devout religious person, I think you're squarely spot on with several of your observations.
Perhaps I'm one of the new believers. I believe in a God that wants me to... no... EXPECTS me to learn all I can, to seek out knowledge and do as much good for as many as possible.
Science has explained so much - and perhaps in a few years it will explain everything
Until then, I suppose I will hold to exploration and faith.
Nah.. I don't get this sense. Even from members of my own congregation... there's still way too much "they" and "them" discussion. The sooner we get to "us" the better. I sick of the rhetoric. I am so tired of the vitriol, inside of religion, outside of religion, between religions, meh.. I'm starting to sound like John Lennon. You said it: right on.I hope this is what religion is evolving into.
I am only antagonistic towards those that use faith to justify hate and reduce world knowledge.
In this sense religion is becoming its own worst enemy. It would be best served (and have the healthiest future) if it focused on incorporating all humans for its own intrinsic sake. Any in-group/out-group nonsense or insincere proselytizing will not due in the 21st century.
Religion has always been its own worst enemy. When did "moderates" stand up and condemn what their extremists are capable of under their religious myths?
Great post. I agree with you on the different foundations of religion, and also how they have been or how they might be eliminated over time. I have always thought of religion and science as two sides of the same coin. When humans developed self and environmental awareness, we probably had many questions about the world and how it worked. With our early beginnings, and specifically, the beginnings of civilization, much of humanities time revolved around crop production. It makes sense that many early religions tried to appease the sun, atmosphere, and the seasons. Religion's function is to help explain the world which we cannot explain, and as a result, offer comfort when there are so many unknowns. It evolved as a tool of comfort, but obviously came with many terrible side effects, the worst being a violent divider of people. Over the past century we have revealed so much about the universe that there are less questions to be answered, and less need to use religion as a guiding post. As a result, we see a trend towards new atheism and a new sense of spirituality, or connectedness with one's self, while religious systems become less able to offer the comfort it once did. Religion will suffer even more when we finally answer the questions of extraterrestrial life and possibly the origins. However, it seems to me that as long as there are questions that have yet to be solved by science, humanity will find a use for religion. This is why I say "two sides of the same coin." As long as there exists some "unknown" about the Universe, religion will have an applicable place; somewhere to hide where it can't be disproved until science has a look. Similarly, as long as there are unknowns about the Universe, science is the only useful tool to really uncover the mystery. As soon as the entire universe has unfolded before our eyes, and once science has solved everything, religion disappears. But so does the need for science. I don't believe we will ever come to this point because surely the Universe extends beyond what we currently perceive as possible, and its complexities may develop infinity. I always considered the greatest irony to be if there is a god, that they are a scientist who simply discovered a way to program or create a universe.
I think this is a reflection of their shared phylogenetic history. Religion, science, and philosophy probably emerged from the same ancient thought tradition. I'm with you on this, but only if we use the word religion in the very limited sense of describing "something supernatural". I could see people in still saying "well I think God is like an energy that fills the Universe" or say "well God is just the laws of physics", etc. But a purposeful, anthropomorphized, creator God is on the way out. Yes, agreed. I think problems and mysteries are an inherent function of living in a Universe governed by entropy. The universe is knowable, but we will never "know all the things". Some physicists consider this a likely scenario.I have always thought of religion and science as two sides of the same coin.
However, it seems to me that as long as there are questions that have yet to be solved by science, humanity will find a use for religion.
As soon as the entire universe has unfolded before our eyes, and once science has solved everything, religion disappears. But so does the need for science. I don't believe we will ever come to this point because surely the Universe extends beyond what we currently perceive as possible, and its complexities may develop infinity.
I always considered the greatest irony to be if there is a god, that they are a scientist who simply discovered a way to program or create a universe.
Not likely, since deterministic chaos prevents "programming". As for the process that results in universes, it is quantum mechanics on the quantum void. I.e. no one can "create" a universe, since such a system would have excess energy which a universe can't have.
Nick Bostrom seems quite fond of the argument. I'd like to give it more thought in the future.
I know that many animals can feel surprise and shock and also curiosity, but are there any other animals in which awe has been observed? From the perspective of someone who knows very little about animal behaviors and how human behaviors have developed, it seems like awe or at least reverence plays a role in the development of religions or the desire to worship something greater than oneself.
It would be super hard to test whether other animals feel a sense of awe or revere something bigger than oneself. Sometimes I've thought chimpanzees feel it. But I can't be sure. It is even harder than trying to infer what a chimpanzee is thinking about death.
"Regardless of culture people attribute agency to the supernatural. This is despite the fact that nothing supernatural (perhaps by definition) can be empirically observed,". I don't think science should make theological claims. People attribute agency, period. What happens after is that we observe that much of that is amenable to observation. For example the non-existence of global floods (19th century). The inefficacy of intercessory prayer (2006). The non-existence of a single human breeder pair (2011). That the universe to 10^22:1 or in other words 100 % must be a result of a spontaneous process (as per curvature measure of initial energy; 2012). That the LHC completion of the Standard Model means any ideas of souls/afterlife/rebirth would need 10^3 times the energy they are allowed from QED precision measurements (2013). The same goes for the description of abrahamistic religions in point 1-3, I don't think science should be limited to the observation of those. Religions started AFAIK out as attributing agency spurred by our ability to see patterns and imagine agency. Often looking for human analogs. Granted, some religions grappled with explanation, some with death, some with destiny. But I don't think we can model religion on those specifically. As for eternity, I think Sean Carroll's latest summer school in cosmology was enlightening. The absence of eternity, which LHC may imply (not quite 3 sigma for a quasi-stable vacuum), may be necessary to get rid of Boltzmann Brains. Eg the problem isn't that quantum mechanics isn't spontaneously spawning things, like universes from the quantum void, the problem is that it does so too eagerly, like BB fluctuations out of a thermal vacuum. Meaning, magic is not even on the horizon today, the real problem is that nature is too "creative".
The fundamental functions I mentioned are important for the continued maintenance of religion. I proposed a hypothesis that "death awareness" must be a key step towards religion, but we can't test this. I agree with most of your assertions re: cosmology. I have heard Carroll speak on this issue. Hopefully he was right in a recent TED talk and we can solve the cause of the Big Bang before 2050.Granted, some religions grappled with explanation, some with death, some with destiny. But I don't think we can model religion on those specifically.
the real problem is that nature is too "creative".
As always, this is a very interesting post. It has raised a few questions for me. Why do humans seek relatedness and purpose? In evolutionary terms, there are explanations of how humans with a natural tendency to seek community relationships and cooperate with others would have a survival advantage over others that did not worry about relating to others and mutually benefit each other. Further along that vein, if you would find a way that you could uniquely benefit your group by having a specific purpose, perhaps as a specific kind of hunter, learning how to defend against threats, being particularly adept at memorizing terrain and resource locations and so on, then having a purpose would make you valuable to your community for survival. Pairing this desire with curiosity and our musings of religion results in this idea that we're here because a higher being wants us to be here and gets some value out of our existence. At the very least, we exist so that we can help others learn about religious ideas that we've discovered so that they can appreciate the ideas and benefit from what we've learned. So what does this mean for our future? Will we find satisfying purpose in our lives from something other than religion? Can we appreciate our role in evolution, species survival and intellectual evolution?
This is definitely possible, good idea. It could also be a by-product of intelligence and/or consciousness. I think it is particularly useful to think about the period of time when self-awareness was becoming stronger and stronger. The dawning of self-awareness should have led to a cascade of effects, one of them, I suspect, also including "finding a purpose". In this sense, the survival advantage of "having a purpose" would be to avoid insanity. If you believe your consciousness is infinite and that you are here because "someone has a purpose for you" then you are going to be able to run your incredible complex software and apply it to things it was meant to be applied to: survival. Individuals already do this. Ideally everyone can find a vocation in this life that they deem to be bigger than oneself. For me, it is science. For someone else, it might be art or music or whatever makes them feel amazing inside. The meaning of life, on an individual level, is all about finding your own meaning. I think it is the most beautiful story. So, I hope so.perhaps as a specific kind of hunter, learning how to defend against threats, being particularly adept at memorizing terrain and resource locations and so on, then having a purpose would make you valuable to your community for survival.
Will we find satisfying purpose in our lives from something other than religion?
Can we appreciate our role in evolution, species survival and intellectual evolution?