The bad news is love is a vast territory.
The good news is there is a map.
Unfortunately, as you get older, you have more and more trouble seeing the tiny print on the map.
It doesn't matter, though, because the map is in another language and – like driving in Europe - the map has no relation to the territory. So you navigate by landmarks and are as lost as ever.
Luckily, from time to time, there is a rest stop with a REALLY BIG MAP.
Look on the map.
If it says, "You are here" -- then you are probably in love.
hubski? _refugee_ and all the rest. How do you know?
When you are a better person and the world is a better place when you are together. When the way you feel, your confidence, your happiness, your everything is just a bit more shiny. When bad things aren't so bad and when stressful situations aren't so stressful. When it's you two vs the world. When not being together makes experiences more dull - not because you are dependent on one another but because you want to share the emotions from every experience. When you want the other person to be happy, feel amazing, experience amazing things, learn and grow and all that good stuff and their happiness, growth, experiences are as important to you as your own happiness. When it makes you happy to see them happy. When your wellbeing and their wellbeing are closely intertwined and you would do just about anything to make them well. When sacrifices aren't sacrifices when it's for them. When really bad movies don't annoy you because just holding or touching or being with the other person makes up for the horrid movie. When you catch yourself smiling uncontrollably remembering something for yesterday or last week. When you can just look at each other and be like "yup this is cool. This is all I need." when the urge to get shitfaced or smoke or whatever no longer seem as fun because it's more fun to remember the entire night and enjoy each other. When going to sleep is something you look forward to because it means you're going to be with them and no one else and nothing else and no one else can touch that. When you can look at each other and you don't have to say anything, you just know. When you stop trying so darn hard. When you don't wonder what else is out there or who else is out there or mind that this is going to be the only person you'll fuck forever and that actually sounds okay. I don't know. There are so many little things. The big one is like... You just are good. You just are happy and content and alive. And you don't wonder if it's love or if it's forever or what they think of you. It's that moment when everything is just in place and right and there's no hesitation or questioning or doubts or insecurities. It's like the sky is blue and your boss is a shithead and you're in love. It's simple. It's so simple. I'm. Like. A. Fucking. Hallmark. Fucking. Card. Shoot. Me. Now. :D
A lot of people here are describing the headrush of adulation: how infatuation feels, how it is to be smitten with someone, how the honeymoon-easy-parts of the relationship are, especially (to me it seems) in the beginning days when the rush is still fresh. Indeed, studies show that happiness peaks for a short time after a relationship, but then normalizes. Therefore I must admit I am suspect of these definitions of love - don't we hold love to be a lasting, permanent force in life? Isn't that one of its hallmarks, its ability to remain after many fights and years? Indeed, don't many people tell us we cannot even truly know we are in love until we have been with a person for x weeks, x months, even x years? I have a friend who has been living with her boyfriend for the past year. They dated for a few before that. This year, they moved in together, finally, due to careful budgeting. The boyfriend bought himself a new car around the same time. Two weeks later, he was laid off. My friend has been supporting him through unemployment until he finally found a job - but one which pays less than both his former gig and unemployment. You can imagine the stress their little household has encountered as it has gone from "carefully stepping forward on the 'next step' while moving in a reasonable financial matter" to "my friend paying for basically the entirety of the household as her partner needs to recoup and get back on his feet." (They have an agreement and he will begin putting money back towards rent soon.) Thing is, that friend? She tells me, she doesn't know if she's in love with him. She wants to know, what love is. She's very upfront with her partner about this; they've talked about love, and how he's certain he loves her, but she has difficulty with the idea for some reason. I think the concept is more nebulous than she is comfortable, that of love. You can't define it or draw lines and say "this is where love starts." Recently I told her that I didn't really care if she didn't think she was in love with her partner. By dint of her actions, I felt and feel that what they have has to be love. My logic is that if she is willing to do as much as she does for him and it's not love, then the rest of her friends should be able to reap similar benefits, no? Basically, a person would not be willing to do everything she does for her partner if they were not in love. Moreover, I think that's what matters more. Not whether you say you are in love but how you act and how you treat your partner.
[DISCLAIMER: The following assumes a family that, while not perfect, does not contain anyone so poisonously narcissistic or otherwise unhealthy/unable to cope/negative, as to prevent these circumstances. YES, people's families suck, and indeed, mine has a lot of flaws. But one thing we generally know how to do is live with/around each other. Families exist where this is not possible. This is my personal experience.] When I think of love, I think most of family. I think of how I tolerate, weather, and understand my family members at their worst and do not leave and often do not even blame them, wholly, for their outbursts. I know them well enough to say "she's just having a bad day," or "he's stressed about [x]" and either not take it personally or strive not to. I give them the benefit of the doubt. I do not consider abandoning them because there is no choice to do so. I worry about them. When I fight with them it is never a matter of winning or losing because there is no point to that. I can't win against my family, or lose, really. I can try to make them understand, and try to hear them, and that's about it. I pick up after them when I have the time, and I don't chalk it up invisibly and wait for my generosity to be paid back. It's simply what I do, because I know they appreciate it, because I know they need help from time to time, because I'm certain that in the long run they will get me back, if that were to matter. I listen when they talk about things I don't care about. I do what they ask because I know it matters to them, not to me. I think if we are talking about LOVE, and not the heady rush of the first months or even year or two of a successful sexual relationship, many of these elements should be there. I think it probably takes years to develop some of these tendencies but I think considering love and long-term relationships from the perspective of "family" helps - because when you marry or partner with someone for an extended period of time, you choose to make them your family, and you need to treat them like {relatively successful} family members treat each other. I have never had that. However, I grow increasingly more conscious of how that kind of mindset is necessary for a successful LTR. When they say, "you must be a team," it really means "pick up the slack when you need to without being asked." It means "transcend tit for tat." Of course this assumes they treat you the same way too, and that it's a healthy relationship, and all is well. I also think it takes years to get to that point. But to me, that's love or the love I would like to get to: knowing there is someone who always has your back at the end of the line, someone who you can always count on so far as they are able. Blah blah blah, sentiment. :)
I think I'm still going to go with "if you don't know if you are in love then you aren't in love." What troubles me most is it sounds like there is the potential for some real deep seeded resentment due to the financial situation, paying for him, etc. The resentment can be on both sides: she may resent him or end up resenting him for not pulling his weight, being a burden, not working hard enough to find a new job, etc. He may resent her for doing what she is doing and feel like he is not worthy, he is being cared for, he is lesser for needing assistance during this time, etc. It's complicated but I've seen many modern men still get their dick tied in a knot when the girl makes more money than him or if he does not have the ability to pay and do everything he wants. I dated a guy for a while who never wanted to be seen taking money from me and never wanted to be seen not paying the bill. As we were both equally broke and frugal, I often gave him whatever money I was planning on spending before we went out so that he would be seen getting us drinks, paying for dinner, and I would never be seen with my wallet out. Since I'm receiving this information from you rather than from her, I won't make too many assumptions regarding this. It does sound like the potential resentments are definitely there and something that I would be worried about. Obviously, being worried about potential resentments isn't a very good sign of a healthy relationship. :) I completely agree with you about the honeymoon vs long-lasting love. So here's my take on long lasting love, which has some similarities to yours. Family is a good place to start as it has this level of inescapability. But you don't choose your family and you can't leave them. In modern America, people leave each other all the time - even long lasting marriages. So I think one thing that love is loving, knowing, and wanting to love this other person forever, having no doubts about this fact, and no thoughts that it could be any other way. Just like you can't leave your family, love kills all doubts that you could leave the other person or live without this other person. After a while, you fall out of lusty, sexually charged, hand holding, kissing over dinner mode. This love is not as easy to describe (or nearly as fun) and I characterize it as companionship, undying support, teamwork, and togetherness. It shifts from this thing where every little thing is exciting to where your relationship is just always there. This is also where your individual life starts to come back. You both have your personal goals, dreams, hopes, inspirations, jobs, hardships and, while separate, your relationship is like the motivation and glue and driving force behind what you do. You want to be better and you are better because you are have this other person. Honestly, I think falling is love does great things for your career and personal dreams. I see this with my parents a lot. My dad has his businesses and his work and his boat. My mom, since she's retired now, has her things like yoga, church, friends, tutoring, and substitute teaching. They both do all these things separate and my mom couldn't give two fucks about the faulty o-rings on the water intake of the boat and my dad couldn't give two fucks about yoga. But they consult each other on everything, they give and receive advice, they are supportive and push each other to think bigger, do better, overcome challenges, etc. The simple knowledge that you are not going through life alone and you have someone right there with you to accomplish everything makes life easier and better. They take care of each other always and would do just about anything to help one another - sometimes to a fault. My dad can be extremely annoying in his willingness to help and offer everlasting support - I've heard my mom say, "you know, sometimes you just want to rant and have someone listen, not have someone attempt to solve your every problem." I told her that's what she gets for marrying an engineer. In the end, we both realize that it comes from a good place. Similarly, if my dad asked my mother to help him on the boat, she would be to the boat immediately and hold the o-ring for as long as he needed. (I have no idea what you do when you fix an o-ring, obviously). The other remarkable thing is that they can get annoyed with each other and poke fun at each others idiosyncrasies and be (in my opinion) incredibly harsh with one another at times. However, it never penetrates their love? I don't quite know how to say this. It never is deep? It's part of them and their relationship. And they are comfortable enough, trusting enough, and confident enough in their relationship that all the little things have no bearing on their relationship. When you can be openly annoyed with someone for something and still go to sleep happy with each other at the end of the day, then that is love. I doubt they even talk about it. Because it's just one of those things that is there and they still are completely sure in themselves and each other and their relationship. It's not even a thing. I don't know. This paragraph is a mess. Also, since were going to roll with the half-thoughts and messiness, another example of this is thing I remember seeing more as a kid and never seeing in any other relationship. My parents had a running joke about "my dad's girlfriend" and "my mom's boyfriend." For example, we'd be watching a movie, the house phone would ring, no one was there, my dad or I would ask, "who was it?" and my mom would joke, "must have been your girlfriend." (Obviously, it was most likely a robot call who failed at doing it's only job.) Similarly, my dad would come upstairs and see the Atlanta Braves on TV and go, "oh you're just watching your boyfriend (Chipper Jones) again." Again, these interactions are not "a thing." As in, there is literally nothing to them. Most relationships I know, this situation would result in hard feelings, insecurities, slow building of resentment, etc. People say "don't go to sleep upset" because the unresolved issues will pop up later. The thing is, with my parents at least, it's not really unresolved. It's more similar to "agree to disagree" or simple acceptance or something. I'm really sure what it is. It's not a sign of lack of trust and no one, including me, ever thought that my dad had a girlfriend or that my mom was even the slightest bit worried about him having a girlfriend. It's just shows their utter and complete trust and how they are on the same page and have this understanding of one another that is very rare. My boyfriend and I are getting there. We can have little arguments and disagreements and whatever and go to sleep knowing that we are going to wake up together still and happy still. Considering we are both incredibly stubborn and hard-headed, this is impressive, to say the least. It's like a different, bigger form of trust. Once you know that you are in this thing together, nothing can affect that. And once you know that the other person is going to be there forever, the insecurities and reasons for not going to bed upset sort of fall away. I guess issues are only issues if they have the potential to create or amplify insecurities and affect your relationship. Once you get to a point where you aren't insecure, the issues have to be much, much bigger. I think the biggest thing about love is the trust - but it's a much different trust that the trust we typically hear about with love. It's not "trusting" someone to go out to a bar filled with sexy people and not fuck them. It's this huge level of trust where you absolutely, undoubtedly know that this person is going to be by your side and help you conquer whatever comes your way. It's knowing that you are together forever and on the same page and with each other through everything. It's knowing that nothing - not even Chipper Jones in his hey day - could ever touch your relationship and the love and respect and companionship and everything that you have with this person. I think that's that big ass, long lasting love. I also know that thenewgreen has this with his wife, although I don't them enough to come up with examples or attempt put their relationship into words. Maybe when he's not running around being thenewgreen he can comment.Thing is, that friend? She tells me, she doesn't know if she's in love with him. She wants to know, what love is.
Trust me, when it comes to potential issues in her relationship with her man, concerns and opinions have been (tactfully) aired from my side, and she has (to her credit) considered them. Your concerns may very well not be far from mine. It took me several years to say this to my friend, but I don't really like her partner. However, I care more about being there to listen to her and offer a sounding board than about whether I like his personality - so I keep an open mind and listen, and pitch in my advice when she wants it, and then I remind her of my own flaws and biases. I'll be honest in that my parents don't have the kind of relationship I would want if I got married. Although I did pull from my own family life for references and examples regarding love, I think you manage to present a fuller picture of "long term/permanent love" and some of its nuances than I get to appreciate/look in on at home. My mom is both co-dependent and selfish, and once or twice has told my brother that my father "doesn't like confident women." I don't think my parents are as good of a team as they could be because of the dichotomy of their relationship - my mom relies on/expects that my dad will take care of most things for her. However, that's the set-up that they probably knew they were getting into when they got married. It just may have gotten more pronounced and exaggerated as time passed. My mom once asked me if, should the need arise, I could take my dad to the hospital in the middle of the night so that she wouldn't have to - because she wanted to be able to get a good night's rest. To me, if my life partner was in the hospital with an emergency, not only would I want to be there with them - both as support and for information - but also, a good night's sleep would be impossible. They don't sleep in the same bed most of the time. Anyway so this isn't really meant to be about my parents. They've absolutely managed to stay together for like, 25 years, so that's something. I do think that sometimes people change as they get older in ways you couldn't have expected or predicted and sometimes it can worsen or weaken the relationship and that's sad. For instance my dad has turned into a really cranky, short-tempered old man. He wasn't when they married or even 10 years ago, but now he is. But they're still together. They put up with each other's vagaries for sure. They provide each other company and I know my mother especially really likes/needs that. And dad in his own way looks out for mom. Sometimes he takes us kids aside and reminds us to be nicer to her, even as he acknowledges how she can be annoying and aggravating. Who's going to have an ideal relationship anyway 20 years down the road? But I do hope, whatever I have, it doesn't go down quite the same path that they did. I enjoy hearing your thoughts, insom. Keep 'em rambling. :) You have a lot more confidence in your s/o than I do in mine. I really think it's helpful to me so see your successful, happy relationship, at least from the back seat. :)
Last night I stopped running around, being thenewgreen and took the time to comment in this thread. Hopefully it makes sense.
When I feel like I can talk to somebody about anything, and be completely open and honest about my feelings and thoughts about things and know that they will be valued and reciprocated, that's a big thing. Or really wanting to just be with that person, and not have a desire to go explore other possibilities but to grow and cultivate that relationship, having openness and honesty physically/during intimacy. There's a lot to it and it seems to spring up on me as opposed to being something I'm aware of as it's happening. Another question is - how long does it take to fall in love? I like the #slownewsday tag a lot.
There's a lot about like confidence and opening and insecurities that I notice with love. I quite haven't figured out how to explain it but you did a pretty good job. It's like there's something more though. It's like the other person is there and allows you to be different. I see myself change as a result of the person but most of the openness and all that comes from me. I find that my relationship with others change for the better too. Like being in love allows me to be a better person and be more open and honest with others. Maybe because I care less about what they think because I get my validation from myself and from my partner. Maybe it's something else.
You know, I think more importantly love is knowing what lies at the other end (relationship ending, death, hardships, etc.) and being completely comfortable with where you lie and what the future may or may not hold. I'm not sure if that's a symptom or a source of validation, but to address being a better person I think it's easy to view it in that light when love is (usually) an overwhelming positive emotion. The power and illusion and that go do wonders to a persons drive and ambition. Or tear them about. I am interested in if thenewgreen still agrees with the last line of this comment? Sorry, it's almost two years old but I'm wondering if you still think that love is dangerous, and that there are many people who don't think it's worth it?
Entropy, it's a bitch. All doors lead to loss, that's just the reality of things. The more you care about, the more you are putting yourself out there to get hurt. But the more you shutter yourself away from emotion, the more isolated and lonely you become. Which hurt is better? The one that comes on the coattails of great joy or the one that is a constant and ever present weight, perhaps less acute, but none the less dark. Sing me up for the joy/coattails
I'm always subscribed to Entropy Knows Best (future Dadstache Recs release)... Greater risk, greater reward. I'm not a betting man but I think at this point I would go for the coattails over the alternative though I'm not sure how many people aren't doing so for reasons other than being afraid. This is also coming from someone who saw American Beauty for the first time last night, and aside from being annoyed for a lot of the movie saw a lot of characters who, despite their outward ambitions and appearances and ideals, only seemed to be looking for some sort of love. I think that can be the case of many people, even those that shy away from emotion.
I like Belle and Sebastians album title, "The Life Pursuit" -I think it's all about "love"I think that can be the case of many people, even those that shy away from emotion.
-I'd say "most" people, not "many".
Randomly selection of posts about love: Hubski, tell me what you feel about love. by gordonz88 What does being in love feel like to you? by Saydrah and lastly the recent Also, kids: don't fall in love before you're 32 or so. It's just not convenient. by lil
I like this, this resonates with me. The seemingly happiest people I've known have been those that gave love indiscriminately.
Sometimes it doesn't come at all
I only know that when I'm in it
Love isn't silly at allLove doesn't come in a minute
'Love is that condition in which the happiness of another person is essential to your own.' -Heinlein I spent the better part of my weekend taking care of my sick S.O., and I learned a lot. I think there is substantial difference in the way men and women of the same culture deal with illness/suffering.
I'm hesitant to make generalizations. I've known both men and women to fill the look-after-me spectrum from stoic and uncomplaining to needy and demanding to immobile and unrecognizable. Illness is sad for all concerned -- especially in a long-distance relationship like yours. You never know who is going to be the sick one.
How your heart aches when you know you've hurt them. How you'd give your very life for them. That feeling in the pit in your stomach. I always thought that was crap but it's true.
this is making me depressed edit: IM OKAY AND WAS KIDDING, NO NEED TO BE WORRIED :D
Fuck off with that bullshit. This is why I don't like these kinda questions. There's always that one person who's like "well shit I haven't experienced that," and then they get stupidly depressed. They're usually < 17 in age. And the media doesn't help either. I was that kid for a long time before I realized that I'm an emotionless husk that will probably never get married. My sister and I will probably room together ana adopt a bunch of cats. In before all of the "ohhhhhh you're just YOUNG 8bit" comments. I realize that, but ya'll are doing everyone who doesn't fall in love a bit of a disservice. They ARE out there, you just dont see them in Disney movies and shit. If not knowing when you're really in love is it, Poobledoobles, you're doing A O FUCKIN K. That being said, this has also been THE shittisst day I may have had in the past five years so I might feel differently later. Hubski, if you realize the only reason you haven't lay down on a bunch of train tracks and let momentum do the rest is because you're worried about ONE person when you're gone, shit is probably not ok, fix it and stuff
Saw a picture of that blizzard in the Times. Neat stuff, I say from the comfort of my 66-degree day. Everything is great for now. I'm running out of time to secure a future for myself before that gets significantly harder, so the clock is ever-ticking. But nonetheless. Hard not to enjoy a life filled with reading, drinking and good conversations.
No man, that's not what I mean and neither is disrespect. I mean that people I respect (including myself) have gone through being unloved and I feel I get what you are saying. Love is tricky and different for everyone. Do not validate or invalidate your concept of love via the experience of others. For example, no one in this thread has talked about being in love with someone while not being in love with one's self. Been there, done that and personally, I know that love isn't enough. Sometimes to do the right thing one has to say, "I love you, but I'm leaving and I'm never coming back." I feel like this question could be better phrased. "When are you in love enough to make it last" and to that question, I am still finding out that answer. Chin up, in any case.
Title question was asked to me by a young man who thought that because I was with someone that I would know the answer. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. When are you in love enough to make it last? Answer: you don't know this until it lasts. At some point, you might say "I'm not leaving this person. I'm staying with this person as long as possible." it might not be the being "in love" that makes it last -- it might be all kinds of other things too. Good and worthy things. And just enough of that sticky love stuff maybe to hold it all together.
Hey man, I've been in love. Like, at least twice, not more than 4 times. I wasn't super serious about my comment, which is unfair to say because sincerity can be stupidly hard to discern over the internet. I've talked about love on the 'Ski before too, and I'm okay with how fucking terrible it is because.. well.. it keeps shit interesting at least. Sorry your day's been suckin' homie, I've been there. I wish you all/none of the love in the world as you see fit. take care bruhbruh
nowaypablo One of the few things I can say for a fact about love is that I tell people I'm in it way before I actually am. Or do I? It sounds depressing, to be like, "Yeah, so, all I know for sure is that I say I'm in love way before I could know I am in love, and if I had to look back and reflect, I definitely tell people I'm in love when you know what? I probably wasn't." What does it really matter though, if maybe sometimes I'm in love with someone for a minute or an hour and that's it? If sometimes I'm in love with them, and later, sometimes I'm not? What does it matter, to look back and say, later, "Oh, I said I was in love, but I definitely wasn't," except maybe to feel better about the situation? You should never feel like, because of another person, you have a reason to live. I completely agree, 8bit. But I'll tell you what (and Hubski please don't get on my back and jump on this post for what I'm about to say), sometimes, I have days where I'm driving around, or I've finished work, or I've just walked into the house, and I think, "You know what, I wouldn't mind if today, I died." I don't wish I was dead, it's not suicidal. It's just a kind of apathy - like, if I died today, that would be all right. (To add, and speak generally: Hubski, I'm generally pretty pro-death. Like, we get one life, and one shot, and that's it, and that's a good thing, and I find these concepts comforting, not depressing. I realize not everyone agrees with me on this, I realize it may even be pretty odd, I'm okay with that, too.) When I am pursuing a good relationship with someone I care about deeply, I am more likely to think, "You know what, today, I'd prefer not to die." A concert could have the same impact. A poem about to come out, book plans in the work, whatever. It's not that that person gives me something to live for, but rather they give me an experience I'd prefer to live to see out. To see how it goes. Love, I guess, is one of many many things that can give life excitement and more importantly hope.
See my reply to 8bit I think it puts us on the same page. I say I think because I have absolutely no idea what "page" i'm on. Pour moi, love is the nutella that makes your pair of whole grain bread slices an expedition in ecstasy. It's the silly for your putty. The gummy bear you ate was laced with LSD and you found out when your toes told you. That's love. And it's all good; the sandwich gets gobbled, the putty wasn't that silly in the first place, and your trip is over before you know it. It gives life purpose because you're only here to fart around in the first place. Finally having something that feels significant is gonna make you not wanna die. (shouts out to Kurt Vonnegut). You only realize its useless when you're done having fun and back to farting around again. Same thing with.. anything, really. It's just another high as far as I'm concerned, and that gives it all the more reason to take a hit.
I was thinking of it as a kind of #vaguequestionsbypablo homage.
I always enjoy seeing those vague questions. This one is a big one and I don't have a good answer. I feel like the "love" that a lot of people are describing here is the early, 6 months to 2 years love. The love that's far more elusive and hard to come by is the love that tests your patience, the love that can look back behind itself and see a tapestry of shared experience. This love doesn't give you butterflies in your stomach and it no longer makes you a "better person", you are the person you are, you realize that after the endorphins subside. Enduring love fits like an old sweater, tattered in places, but still warm and more comfortable than all those new ones hanging in your closet. Sure, once in a while a thread comes bare and pokes at you more than any other thing on earth could, but you'd never change it. Well, almost never. Enduring love doesn't have you counting the moments between kisses. Enduring love, moves like a glacier, carving a path like a rorschach through the years that only you two can see for what it is. Enduring love is an island that only you two inhabit. New love is flashy, it's a valentines day card, it too is an island, but you want everyone to visit it, to see what it is you've found. New love is fun, it's exciting and if you are lucky it will happen many, many times in your life. Enduring love will not happen many times. There's not enough runway.
I was kiddinggg with my comment :D this has been a super interesting thread. I'm just at the bit in the hill-and-valley cycle of emotional living where looking up at positive things puts a little sting in the eyes. I'll be fine ;D
I read it as kidding -- but wait, did I miss something? The gummy bear you ate was laced with LSD and you found out when your toes told you.
I thought you had never done acid, but that when you did _refugee_ was going to be your guide. Or someone else. Or maybe I'm thinking of someone else.
Haha, I ended up taking it solo in December, I think I mentioned it once in a very weird and slightly uncomfortable thread on drugs a while back. Turns out there's a little jellyfish that lives in the back of my head that was my guide all along ._.