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comment by b_b
b_b  ·  4482 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Fear of a Black President

I think we have a language problem. Racial prejudice is entirely different from racism. Certainly there are racists in society, but I don't think they're as numerous as we are led to believe. Racism is the belief that group X is superior (however defined) to others, or the corollary: group Y is inferior. That white are superior to blacks (and men to women) was an argument that was made and defended by serious scientists up until the early 20th century. Volumes have been written and since debunked on the subject. I don' think that this has any traction in the modern main stream. For instance, try to use the N word at a party, even one with all WASPs. It won't play well at most.

Racial prejudice--the practice of assuming certain correlates based on one's race--on the other hand is alive and well. I will say to the grave that I am not a racist, because I believe that I am not a racist. But, if I see a group a black teenagers who look like thugs hanging on the corner in my neighborhood, I'm going to subtly cross the street before I walk by. I think a lot of people would. How do we not judge others? Its a basic survival mechanism as old as consciousness. It so happens that 1) race is an easy identifier and 2) young black men commit a hugely disproportionate amount of violent crime, have low literacy rates, speak in a manner that's difficult to decipher at times, and have high unemployment. Unfortunately, this is what one correlates with inner city youth.

And I don't think its even that much about race. No one judges a black guy poorly--even a young black guy--who is wearing a charcoal suit. But everyone judges a white guy who looks like a piece of white trash. Appearance is much deeper than skin color, it just so happens that skin color is a very obvious attribute of most people. Maybe I'm being unfair by saying that all blacks have to do to be accepted is to look white; I truly don't know. Its difficult to not view this issue through the lens of our current societal norms, most of which have been defined by whites. But I think to continually chalk all racial issues up to racism is dangerous and, above all, incorrect. We will never have any deeper understanding of one another when using this language, because most white hear racism and think "Well, I'm not a racist". I think racial prejudice is a more correct, more constructive way to frame these debates.





o_o  ·  4482 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I think there are two really illuminating things you mentioned in reply to this post. The first is your overall point of terminology, particularly in your treatment of the words "racism" and "racial prejudice". I'm going to throw out another one: institutionalized racism, which in my opinion, is really a subset-but an extremely relevant one- of racism. I would argue that my understanding of racism goes beyond just one group's belief that they are superior to another, and encompasses when that belief is perpetuated and legitimized by their society as a whole. I would argue that is another difference between racial prejudice and racism. Everybody- regardless of their skin color- has some racial/ethnic prejudices of their own and in my opinion it would be simplistic to say otherwise. But I personally belief racism goes beyond that--> it occurs when such beliefs are legitimized through various power structures such as big business, government law enforcement, the media etc. I would argue that this is the major problem today; our society still creates and upholds an environment where one's quality of life and opportunities are dictated by the color of their skin, or their gender or the sexual orientation. Of course it may not be in as obvious ways (though it is still important and scary to note just how recent the era of Jim Crowe segregation was), but if you are looking for proof, turn on the TV and count how many times you see characters of color in commercials or television shows (and I'm not just talking black characters; in my opinion I would argue that Asians, Indians, Hispanics are even LESS often represented), whole segments of the United States population are ignored, essentially implying that they do not carry the same importance as their counterparts.

Another great example is the one you yourself brought up in your second example of prejudices. While I am extremely hesitant of absolving individuals for their actions, it is an obvious fact that those same young black men who commit a higher amount of violent crime are products of a society that engages in racial profiling, provides them with lower educational opportunities, is more likely to deny them a job than their white counterparts etc. In many ways our society has created an environment where the decks are staked against these young men, yet we then condemn them for their actions, without examining our own influence/impact in it.

To be 100% honest, I don't really think the terminology is super important... as long as we understand that racial equality is still far off (though we have made amazing strides!), and work in whatever way we can, (even if is only through engaging in this discussion) to combat it, that is what matters.

b_b  ·  4482 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Fair point about institutional racism. But even institutional racism, as it is no longer codified in law, is merely a product of our collective prejudices. For example, there was a study that showed that identical resumes--one having a black sounding name and one white sounding--were far more likely to garner a callback for the "white" applicant (in quotes, because there were no actual applicants). I doubt that those managers said to themselves "I don't want a black guy working for me". My guess is that it was subconscious. There is further evidence to support this, as other studies have shown that we (I mean everyone, not just whites) subconsciously associate things that are white (culturally white, not white color) with positivity and things that are black with negativity. As JacobVirgil said in his response, we need to be aware of our prejudices before we can confront them.

I strongly disagree that words don't matter. There is a reason oliticians have dedicated speech writers, and advertisers employ trained copy writers. Words, even their etymology, influence our thinking on everything. Language defines the way we interact with one another so often (for instance right now, where we don't have the luxury of inflection or body language). Being precise and conceptually accurate are paramount to understanding, IMO.

o_o  ·  4482 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I would definitely agree with what you said above. Ironically (showing how much words DO matter), I don't think I expressed myself as clearly as I should have in my last paragraph. I simply meant while the terminology is important, the act of recognizing that these problems still exist in society may be more important than the words we use to express these problems, particularly because many people have slightly different ways that they conceive of and understand these words. That being said, I do think my treatment of that was rather simplistic, and that you brought up a valid and obvious counterargument to my last point.

o_o  ·  4482 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Oh and one more thing: What does it mean to "look white?" Wearing a cowboy hat? Listening to Johnny Cash? Going hunting? I kid, (obviously being white does not mean you do any of these things) but I think that this whole idea of looking white or acting white (which you equated with dressing well), is another really destructive idea that goes hand in hand with the articles discussion of blacks (and it should be noted all other minorities, and even one majority-women) having to be 'twice as good' to prove themselves. I would maintain that the way one dresses, talks or acts has far less to do with their race or gender, and far more to do with the economic and educational opportunities and advantages that they have received. Speaking well and dressing sharply are not exclusive to being white; (one does not do these things because they are white) therefore you can't equate such things to 'acting white', which in and of itself is also a destructive term, in my opinion, for whites as well, because it seeks to relegate certain characteristics as attributes of their skin color. A POC/woman does not speak well because they are trying to "act white" they speak well because they are well educated. Are white people maybe more likely to possess such attributes? Sure--> but it is not something inherent to their whiteness by any means.

thenewgreen  ·  4430 days ago  ·  link  ·  

"If you're not white, you're missing out. Being white is thoroughly good"

weeeee!

Louis CK is great. "If you're not white and you don't admit that it's great, you're an asshole".

b_b  ·  4482 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I agree wholeheartedly that dressing well and speaking properly are not the domain of the white man. On reread, I should have put "look white" in quotes. I was trying to be careful, because I have heard from several black and women activists that what we, as white men, expect from others is to conform to our world. For example, in order for a woman to be taken seriously at a job, we expect that she have male-associated traits, such as being unemotional, hyper rational and dominant. This is not my idea, and I don't agree with it. I was trying to anticipate someone hitting me with the "white man's world" argument, and I didn't succeed. See what poor language can do?!

o_o  ·  4481 days ago  ·  link  ·  

It got the best of both of us!

cgod  ·  4482 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    No one judges a black guy poorly--even a young black guy--who is wearing a charcoal suit.
You really think so? I see this all the time at my work. Our most rapidly growing demographic is the local black community that survived gentrification of our neighborhood, it took us about five years to get a consistent group of em to come in on a daily basis. Our best black customer is a young professional guy. He will bring by a dozen of his friends after a party or whatnot dressed in formal wear, every one looking smart and elegant. If they are on the end of the bar that is near the bathrooms I see white people on their way to the bathrooms that decide they really didn't need to go all that bad. I'm sure these white people think that they aren't racist...

Not using a bathroom because there are black people standing by it, even when motivated by fear is just racist. It might just be a matter of definitions here. I don't think they are afraid to walk through a bunch of blacks because they think they are better then blacks which you term as racism, you seem to be saying that it's an instance of racial prejudice rather then racism. I just say haha looks like the goddamn racist is going to have to hold it for a while.

b_b  ·  4482 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Admittedly, I don't work in a profession where I do a ton of people watching. Also I live in a neighborhood that is ~80% black, and the whites that move here are inherently unafraid of blacks or else there's no chance they would live here. Perhaps my judgments have been perverted by my environment. I suppose my overall point (which maybe I didn't articulate well) was that using old, loaded language to describe the modern world might be a hindrance to progress toward a more just society.

JakobVirgil  ·  4482 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Some folks are just scared of poor people and black is a heuristic for poverty. I think it is better to be aware of our prejudices and work on improving them than to stay in the dark on our own prejudice.