With all this talk about muting or not muting, I want to share a process I went through on hubski recently. I posted a short story three weeks ago called "Guns Don't Kill People". It was about the experience a friend of mine had when she asked the police to come to her house and remove some guns.
Three days ago, someone added this comment:
- Why didn't you just get a gun to defend yourself? Even if he can't get his gun, he can get a gun from somewhere. That way, you would have had some way of defending yourself. Wouldn't you rather be empowered than a victim?
The reply bothered me though, so I eventually replied. There were so many differences in our world views and the ways we approached problems. I hinted at the cultural differences as one reason for not sharing his viewpoint. I then looked for something in his comment that I could agree with -- and I found it.
Even in Canada, guns are the most common weapon used for "female spousal homicide" -- I could agree with that. Women are victims of domestic gun violence. Perhaps the commenter just wanted me to be safe.
My own gun, though, would not make me feel safe, and I told him that. If I were threatened by a bullethead spouse, I'd sure as hell get out of the situation -- not get myself a gun. But I could see how some people might want to get a gun. I've known people who lived in terror of ex-spouses.
My response was more an exercise for me than anything else. The commenter probably wasn't expecting a serious response and just wanted to make his pro-gun point. Initially, I felt victimized by the comment, but after responding seriously to his points, I felt empowered.
Not at all, I would wager that the majority of people here don't have anyone muted and aren't themselves muted by anyone.
There are a few people that were muted of late and took offense by it. Much of the anger/annoyance stems from not being able to respond to someone after they've muted them mid conversation. It's a valid concern. But, I'm pretty fucking tired of talking/reading about itl. I think "hubski" is my least favorite topic to discuss while on hubski. Let's talk baseball. That piece on Anaximander that you posted was fantastic. Alright, I'm heading to bed. G'night pal.
How about I steer it towards a more hubski cultural discussion? I don't like mute because I'm seriously terrified of commenting now. If I piss off one of the established individuals on the site, since the site is so tight nit as it is and it's practically impossible for me to insert myself into this existing community, I'll probably end up in a pile of forgotten users. Do I really want to spend my time and effort making quality posts and comments if I'm just going to be shoved in the corner? I see posts all over the place, I read them, I have something to say, and I don't. Hubski is like one of those old western movies. You walk into town as a new guy, walk into the bar, and since nobody knows you everyone points a gun at you. You guys can't understand this because you are already established. It's hard for someone to see this community from this vantage point when you are in your comfy position, just like elected leaders can't really see what it's like to be a peon anymore. Not only that, but you keep giving these dumbasses making dumb points since they feel hurt about being muted more attention than people who are trying to productively talk about it. I have not been muted to my knowledge, yet everyone keeps looking past my posts. Why? Because I take time to make my comments, and wait until everyone is burnt out on the subject. Yet from the primer: The algorithm, yes. The users? No. That's the important one. If a topic they feel is over is brought up by the algorithm, the users just look past it. This is true for every comment based internet discussion because of our NOW NOW NOW society. I thought hubski was different, it's not. I've been commenting on the internet for 18 years. I had so much more positive experiences in the early years when my statements were dumb and not very well thought out. Now that I want to have serious discourse our society is just done with it. We just want to make quick generalized statements and fight over those generalizations rather than think things through. Fuck it. I quit.Another difference is the "speed" of the site. Users are encouraged to slow down, digest, and discuss the topics fully. Commenting on older posts is similarly encouraged. The Hubski algorithm will inject that old post back into the feed whenever the discussion revives.
Here here. I don't like mute because I'm seriously terrified of commenting now. If I piss off one of the established individuals on the site, since the site is so tight nit as it is and it's practically impossible for me to insert myself into this existing community, I'll probably end up in a pile of forgotten users. Do I really want to spend my time and effort making quality posts and comments if I'm just going to be shoved in the corner?
There are also other concerns floating about - Near as I'm aware, I'm not muted, haven't muted any non-spammers, and am unlikely to be muted by the majority of posters. But even given all that, I see muting as a horrible, horrible thing, and have been speaking out against it consistently.
Yea, hubski is at it's worst when it talks about it's self (mostly). I've got over 1200 days here and I've only got one spammer muted and as far as I know, never been muted. I do like that we always joke about burning the place down when mk leaves and that this time a few..,well hell I don't know who these people are, never noticed them till mute gate broke out, took a swing at that joke.
Somewhat baseball related; I got to see the Thudnerbirds F-16s fly over the rooftop bar I was at during the national anthem of the All Star game. It was pretty great. That and bars downtown Minneapolis were open til 4am on account of all star week... (bar time is by law 2am here normally.) Not that I could stay up that late if I tried anymore...Let's talk baseball.
Not that I could stay up that late if I tried anymore...
-Why is that? You getting old AD? You guys are expecting, right? You think you can't stay up now..... just wait.
Yeah, my wife is technically full term with our daughter right now. Could be any day now. I'm not worried about sleep or staying up late after the baby comes, looking forward to it. My career has already made me accustom to functioning on little to no sleep. I'll be a soldier and handle it. We're old suburbanites anyway now. Don't go out a ton anymore, rather stay in. Tonight for instance, I'm just having some cocktails and editing photos from a shoot and listening to music... and getting distracted by Hubski.
When you're not able to go out as often as you used to, you get much better at crafting drinks and cooking etc. At least that has been my experience. Best of luck with the baby, I'm excited for you. As you may know, our daughter is 3 now and it's been the greatest experience of my life having her around. She's a blast and the relationship between a father and a daughter is a very special one. Quick story: When we got the ultrasound and found out we were having a girl, the first person I called was my father. I asked him, "dad, what did you prefer having/raising boys or girls?" He responded, "Steven, I can't tell you that." but after some prodding he said this, "The other night I was at your sister's house and we watched a movie together. Mid war through the movie she fell asleep with her head on my shoulder. When was the last time YOU did that?" -So there you have it. My father's way of saying raising/having a daughter is more rewarding than a son. I took no offense to it, in fact I can now see where he is coming from. The other day my daughter asked me if she could marry me when she gets big. The amount of love there is astounding. Enjoy the journey pal. Be sure to check in and let us know how it went when you can. All my best!Don't go out a ton anymore, rather stay in. Tonight for instance, I'm just having some cocktails and editing photos from a shoot and listening to music... and getting distracted by Hubski.
-Replace editing photos with editing music and we're not so different AD. What was on the menu? What were you drinking?
We made some pasta with alfredo sauce and shrimp. The wife then promptly went to bed at like 8pm. Then I had a few 7and7s and and got some much needed time in Lightroom to edit photos. Thanks for the thoughts on daughters, I've heard that sentiment a lot from numerous other parents I know. When coming into have a baby I was kind of all, "I hope it's a boy", but didn't really have any reasoning beyond being male myself. But the more I hear, read, and think about it, the more I'm looking forward to having a girl. I really didn't care too much either way, but my wife was ecstatic to have a girl I think. Her mom died when she was in her teens and they had a really close relationship, and she feels this is kind of her giving back to the universe in a way. We're naming her after her late mother and grandmother. I'll be sure to check back in at some point.What was on the menu? What were you drinking?
Wow, the parallels are amazing. My wife's mother died when she was nearly 13 and they too were very close. My wife was ecstatic to have a girl. We recently had our son and my wife was very conflicted about having a boy. She really wanted all girls. Turns out, she's beyond in love with the kid and couldn't be happier with him. Turns out the old adage, "I just want a healthy child," is pretty spot on. Again, my best to you three.
So... on the subject of daughters and our wives being similar... Went to the local clinic for our weekly checkup last week on Thursday, wife's blood pressure was astronomically high and she had protein in the urine. Her Ob pretty much told her she had preeclampsia, and told us we needed to go directly to labor and delivery at our hospital. When we asked why, she said, "You're going to meet your daughter in the next 24 hours one way or another." Ran home, grabbed the go-go-pregnant bag, headed to the hospital, got into a labor delivery room. They ran some more tests, yada yada, said "Welp, we need to get that baby out of you! We're going to put you on some drugs and break your bag in the morning." They did. Wife gave birth "traditionally". Long story short, I have a healthy and beautiful baby girl as of 7/25/2014. All I wanted was a healthy child and so far I have one and couldn't be happier. I don't think I've cried in years but man when she came out and started crying and I knew she was alive.... biggest relief I've ever felt in my life. Never really had a chance to bond with a being growing inside my wife, but at that moment I wanted nothing more than to hear her crying and know she was alive. That was a pretty powerful moment. Honestly, just feel relieved the whole pregnancy thing is over. "Is it going to be okay?", "Will it be healthy?", "Is my wife okay?", "When will the moment come?" All that stuff is gone now. Such a relief! Was hoping she'd be born on my birthday, 7/30, but alas that was not in the stars. She was born 7/25. You can't win them all.
Congratulations AD! There's nothing like hearing/seeing your child for the first time, especially when there are complications. I've been there. My best to you three. You have a daughter now, you are someone's father and will likely be the most important person in her world. -such an awesome responsibility! Enjoy pal!
Pretty cute. I'm a guy who thinks most babies are ugly, and I'd totally call my baby ugly if she was, but she turned out pretty cute. She looks a lot like me... but yeah, I'm obviously biased.
She is objectively cute, nice work. Now, find her a job. Babies are such freeloaders :)
Yeah! I thought it was interesting. Pre-Socratic is just not something I've ever delved into. Cards won tonight! Seems like the ASG break was the longest in history. Best three hours of my week watching a tight 3-2 game earlier. Night man! For positivity, listen to that Kishi Bashi post before you go to sleep.
Okay, you and I have to talk seriously for a moment. What the fuck, Matheny? I know you like your guys and all, but starting Wainwright over Kershaw? And after he goes loopy starting, having Neshek go in for more pain? Thankfully I'm over in the AL, but I imagine the lashing he's getting all over the National is ridiculous.
I did, it's an amazing song, pretty much perfect, isn't it!
I think there is something to be said in the fact that we can all learn by taking the time to eventually respond to things that we might not agree with. I know that's something that has gotten me in trouble in the past in real, reacting too quickly to respond to things without taking the time to remove negativity or other emotions and be constructive in a conversation. I completely agree with this. In this case, a relationship is not a warzone, it is not a buildup of arms to see who can intimidate the other into submission. In that sense, a verbal or really any other interaction with another person doesn't always have to be an argument until one person admits that one they are wrong and the other is right. It can be more constructive to find a point that you agree with and build off of that. Finding that common ground can be a great way to reconsidering your own viewpoints or guiding people towards reconsidering theirs. I might be completely off of the mark of this post with what I just said, but either way I appreciate your post. Edit: Re to flagamuffin: I wouldn't have anybody muted if it wasn't for that SRS brigade and honestly I could unmute them since they're mostly gone at this point, but that's 20 clicks I don't feel like making right now.The reply bothered me though, so I eventually replied.
If I were threatened by a bullethead spouse, I'd sure as hell get out of the situation -- not get myself a gun.
bfx - you get my post 100%. thank you for your comment It can be more constructive to find a point that you agree with and build off of that. Finding that common ground can be a great way to reconsidering your own viewpoints or guiding people towards reconsidering theirs.
That's what I'm trying to say. We have difficulty doing this when it feels like the other person's words are a personal attack rather than a projection of the other person's beliefs. In the example I give, the person was telling me that I was being a victim, so I felt both attacked and misunderstood, since, in spite of my use of first person, the story was not about me
As an addendum to gun ownership in Canada - (from what I can remember being told by my brother, a multiple gun owner) In Canada, all guns must be stored without ammunition, and all ammunition must be stored in another separate area from the guns. The guns must be locked with a Trigger lock, and while a locked cabinet is not strictly necessary, i believe it is encouraged (a locked case is necessary for the transport of pistols). All of the above is the reason why, even in self-defence in a home invasion, shooting someone with a gun is a crime in Canada. Due to the amount of actions necessary (unlock the gun, unlock the trigger lock, unlock the ammunition, load the ammunition, THEN fire), there is no possibility of it being an "in the moment decision", it must be, by necessity, a planned action. in the time you took to do that, you could have fled to the neighbours, called the police, and any number of other actions that were NOT firing a bun at another human being.
Muting someone seems like a lazy way of disregarding someone's comments just because you disagree with them. I always get more out of reading opposing viewpoints and controversial opinions, and of course reading responses to them. If Hubski power users prove to be thin skinned or hard headed in their use of mute, I think it is to everyone's detriment. Likewise, the judicious use of mute can keep discussions high quality and on topic. I think whatever system Hubski uses, should embrace transparency so that readers can see how a particular user is utilizing the mute feature.
It sounds like the root problem is that the commenter didn't show you the respect of actually reading your post. My inclination would be simply not to answer. If a person doesn't read your material, and just puts up some knee-jerk response, a thoughtful discussion is unlikely. On the other, I don't think a single instance merits a mute. People have bad days, after all. Now, if the commenter wanted to become lil's personal nemesis, following you from post to post with obviously malicious intent -- I would actually encourage you to mute him, her, or it. If you feel "victimized" by anybody's random internet potshot (pun intended) the problem is, however, probably as much yours as theirs. I do understand -- I myself am all too sensitive to the sting of criticism -- but I know that expecting the whole world to play nice is ultimately paralyzingly. As human beings, we are stronger than that.
Hi em, thanks for your comment. I [EDITED] more or less, somewhat, perhaps tend to agree with you. In the example above, my response was not so much to the poster himself, since as you say,
Now, if the commenter wanted to become lil's personal nemesis, following you from post to post with obviously malicious intent
I'm lucky that I haven't had a cyber-stalker so far. a thoughtful discussion is unlikely.
My response was directed more to the community who might happen upon his comments. I deliberately wanted to model a kind of responsiveness that shows thoughtfulness of opinions opposite to my own.
Don't ever COMPLETELY agree with me -- that would worry me! :) Teaching by example isn't always effective but it does have the merit of not doing any damage. I don't know about you, but I tend to feel that if I don't defend my statements people will just believe the last thing that was said. I know, intellectually, that this isn't true -- but the impulse is pretty strong. Still, tone makes a great deal of difference. You and I would probably disagree about most things, but I'm not inclined to argue with you. That's the payoff of civility.
so amended.Teaching by example isn't always effective but it does have the merit of not doing any damage.
One's personal internet impact is probably minimal, but these little posts are small gestures. My goal is to sustain the illusion of a consistent persona with magical powers as described by eightbitsamurai in his epic story of Hubski. This persona seems to live safely in a library. While the other characters battle goblins and ride dragons, she . . . well, she lives in a library. Sigh.
I just discovered I do not exist in 8-bit's universe. Muted. I've never even spoken with him. If I said something that irritated him, he didn't bother to tell me. Hmm. I don't mute him, of course, so he pops up on threads on my posts. So it goes...
To be honest I don't remember doing that either, or the reason why I would do it, which probably means there wasn't one. I might have just been cruising your profile and done it on accident. That should be fixed now. Sorry 'bout that. I enjoyed your observations on Hubski article.
Thank 8-bit! I thought that maybe the god-like powers of authorship had gone to your head. Others can only mute and ignore me -- you have literary weapons at your disposal! :) If you do feel inclined to mute me in future -- tell me before it gets to that point. I care what you think.
Does that sense of digital empowerment affect your day to day interactions with people whom you share a real world geography? I have wondered in what ways these highly intellectualized relationships that hubski et. al. offer that we enjoy and suffer ... in what ways these intentional lessons or otherwise drive offline motivation and behavior. I think that your experience is very good, lil. And I am glad that someone here found all of this MUTE/IGNORE discussion worth investigating personally. edit: i didn't even know about mute/ignore until this contemporary kerfuffle.I felt empowered.
in what ways these intentional lessons or otherwise drive offline motivation and behavior.
Hubski is a rehearsal for off-line interactions. In my case, I'm actively looking for ways to improve communication both on and off-line, in written and face-to-face communication.
I have given some precursory of thought, lil. I'm not exactly OK with you viewing me as a tool for your "real life" interactions. I mean ... I have an end beyond that. And I think that that sense of Kantian value that we each have value beyond our value to each other makes me not want to interact with people online so much. I am poor enough at human interaction in the face-to-face world that I feel that that undomesticated ME is reflected here, too. But when I see what you contribute here on a daily basis with such earnestness ... I'm OK with you seeing all this as rehearsal. It just reenforces that some people perceive this world from different angles. That said if you ever need to practice arguing with an asshole ... I'm generally around.
No one wants to be used, and of course we “each have value beyond our value to each other.” I can see how my word “rehearsal” can make it seem that I am diminishing your intrinsic value.
I’m glad you challenged me on that. Please let me clarify my meaning. I consider people online to be real people and encounters like this to be real life. As in real life, I use every conflict as an opportunity to be thoughtful about which words I choose that will be effective. So to be more accurate, every written conversation is a rehearsal in the sense that I write, then delete, then rewrite, trying to get the words right – as I am doing here. (I've been working on this response for several days). In spoken life, there’s not so much of a chance to “rewrite.” I’m not always successful in either realm, but writing allows more contemplation. All we have are your words and my words. The words have to stand up for themselves and work harder because on line we are not distracted by factors that arise in person. It is only our words that rub up against each other. I know that online I have enjoyed the bite of sarcasm. I’ve enjoyed the silly ego-boosts of on-line recognition when I’ve beaten back a bully. I am conflicted about these small pleasures and perhaps they do more harm than good.
On Hubski. Whereas IRL you can't cap a conversation by linking a .gif to express your feelings, or a doge meme to express your incapability of feeling like I do/reddit does.
I've got a coworker who likes to talk about his band all the time. Every time he starts droning on about his boring ass band I take out my phone and show him pictures of my kid. He starts squirming immediately. Waiting for the day he realizes I'm screwing around with him, telling him that there is stuff the rest of us could give a damn about. Pretty much linking a .gif IRL.
Do you actually like SnapChat that much?:D Its so restricting, I can't express myself like I want to in like 3 words and a farm animal emoji. Maybe that's the problem. Maybe it's telling me something. Hm.
I love snapchat. Sometimes it isn't the appropriate medium but for casual conversation/back-and-forth/"hey what are you up to?" It's great. I value its impermanence, which minimizes perfectionism and allows one to send silly/ugly pictures that one wouldn't necessarily want permanently on a network like, say, Facebook.
TIL SnapChat is the ultimate ploy at a subconscious propagation of Buddhism in the most polar culture of young America. Woa.I value its impermanence