So, this might sound like a really dumb question, but I've been looking at e-mail etiquette rules all over the place online and can't really find this issue mentioned. I've asked a few different people and they've all given me different answers, so I was hoping a quick discussion on the subject would shed a bit more light on the whole concept.
When applying for a job, is sending out an e-mail with a cover letter and a resume at some odd hour, like 2 in the morning, something that makes me look unfavorable? I've suddenly found myself in an awful time crunch with my schedule at work and my duties at home and it's really starting to cut into my job hunting time. Not only that, but by the time I get home from work, I find myself completely exhausted and emotionally unengaged for the task of job hunting. If I find something that I want to apply to, chances are it's in the middle of the night browsing Craigslist or Monster when I'm fighting insomnia. It's actually a really good time for me personally, because I feel like I can focus on what's important, making myself look and sound good. The problem is, I think the time stamp on the e-mail might make me look like a bum.
Your thoughts?
Shouting out to cgod, rinx, kleinbl00, insomniasexx, thenewgreen, francopoli, b_b, lil, _refugee_, and steve cause you all seem to be super savvy on this kind of thing.
I often write emails late at night and then leave them open, re-read them, and press send before I get in the shower in the morning. Sending something at 5am/6am is much better than 2am. I believe there are also plugins that can send your emails whenever you like. --- Once I know a client pretty well they learn about my work/sleep habits and I tend to send emails at more odder hours without hesitation. I find that being honest with sleep habits is best once you know someone as they are less likely to schedule my night-owl ass on a 9am call, and feel special when I do agree to take that 9am call. It's a win-win. My partner-in-crime laughs at me because I don't even shower for our 9am calls now. I'm fully PJ'd up and ready to go. -- Added bonus email tips! The order of the email addresses should be in order of hierarchy with the client's team members going first. Anyone who isn't expected to fully read and reply should always be CC'd. The order applies there too. For example: Kevin - Marketing Assistant, your company Tom - CEO of your company Mary - Account Manger, your company John - CEO, client's company Kathy - Marketing Manager, their company. If every single person is expected to reply, you should probably double-check the purpose of the email, but let's say it is. The order would be: John - CEO, client's company Kathy - Marketing Manager, their company. Tom - CEO of your company Mary - Account Manger, your company Kevin - Marketing Assistant, your company --- CC's are insanely important as it let's me, the recipient, know that I'm not expected to actually do anything with this email, besides be informed. It constantly annoys me when I am CC'd on an email and then called out to respond, or I am not CC'd on an email and then I read the entire thing closely trying to figure out what the fuck I'm supposed to do. --- Don't Ever BCC Someone! Just don't. It's too risky. Instead, send the email and then forward the sent message to whoever you want to BCC. An accidental reply from a BCC'd address can, and has, lost jobs. --- Keep your emails short. Write what you want to say then delete half of it. Get a drink of water, take a piss, then delete half of it again. Use bullets or numbers instead of paragraphs. Break down actionable items by person, leading with their name so they can ignore the rest. An email rarely is the place (though a Hubski comment is) to go to great lengths to explain or dissect or work out words. An email should exist solely to let another person know what to do, what they should know (if you are certain they don't already know it), or to answer their question. (Obvious exceptions are non-work related items, when you know the person extremely well, or when they've invited long-winded analysis, etc.) From my inbox - the good: He answered my question! I didn't even have to find it in between niceties and a huge signature! Thank you! I know what I need to do. I am aware that Tom may have more input. Done done and done. The bad: I don't fucking care, I don't fucking care, I most certainly do not fucking care about your excuses, and lastly you didn't do your job and are asking me to do my job that I already did and then topping it with a big glob of niceties. Fuck off. I have no idea who this guy is and what he wants from me. And I feel bad because he obviously thinks I can help him. But I cannot understand him, nor help him. At least he started with "Hello" instead of "Hey Taylor" like some randoms do. Bitch, I don't know you... don't hey me.
Just don't. It's too risky. Instead, send the email and then forward the sent message to whoever you want to BCC. An accidental reply from a BCC'd address can, and has, lost jobs. Unless of course you're sending an informative to a group of people - and you don't want the ping pong match of "Please stop replying to all". (although it is fun to watch sometimes)Don't Ever BCC Someone!
Oh good point! That's when BCC's should be used. Also because it hides the identity of everyone else in the group, which is usually a good things in these instances. The marina my family's boat is in constantly has everyone (like 500+ people) in the "to" field. So far it's fine because no one replies to it, but it sucks when it's forwarded to me and I have to scroll through 500 "Person's Name <email address @ email .com>" to see the message. My mom enjoys it because she discovers people who have recently moved in to the marina or learns the last name of the annoying woman down the dock.
The Horrible Job lost a day because The Horrible Challenge Department fucked up. So The Horrible Boss decided to forward the department head email wherein department heads were told our off days went from Thursdays to Tuesdays and that they should forward the email on to their departments. To everyone. But she highlighted the TO: and not the message, thereby forwarding EVERYONE a list of EVERYONE's names. Then she sent a message to EVERYONE telling us to read the stuff below, but didn't actually attach any stuff below. Then she sent a blank message to EVERYONE. Then she finally sent EVERYONE the two line email that the eight department heads had gotten three hours previously, and had forwarded to everyone in their department two hours and 55 minutes previously. Then she forwarded it to EVERYONE AGAIN to make sure we'd received the email. It was like watching an elephant on an ice floe. Best part is that everyone on set knew about the change three hours before the meeting even happened. thankgodshedidn'ttextittous
This has caused email servers to fail and make national news. I have a script that delays internal emails with more than x recipients, sends me a note and lets me manually intervene to prevent stuff like this.
I think you will enjoy this: https://www.reddit.com/r/talesfromtechsupport/comments/420oan/companywide_email_30000_employees_autoresponders/ Hehe.
That looks like a nightmare from the infrastructure side.
A group of individuals - yes! A mailing list - don't BCC I found the link I was thinking of (a cautionary tale): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5174419 While digging for that link I learned a new term.An email storm (also called a Reply Allpocalypse) is a sudden spike of Reply All messages on an email distribution list, usually caused by a controversial or misdirected message.
Three follow up questions. What's the difference between the three fields, "to", "cc", and "bcc"? Is getting the list out of order a huge deal or is it all more of a formality? Lastly, do people really care that much about e-mails that these kinds of concepts are normal hangups?
All of what I'm speaking about revolves around corporate work stuff. It really only matters in that environment and until you are the boss. Once you are only emailing people below you, it seems to not matter. Older generations care more than younger ones, and bosses who have worked hard to be top-dog care more than minions. At the very least, it's a good habit to get into, shows you are aware of the pecking order, have respect, etc. It's one of those things no one notices until they do and no one cares about until you get it terribly wrong. All three arrive in the inbox of the person in any of the fields. As a recipient, depending on my email client, it'll show like this: BCCs aren't shown, which is key. To: This should be the people who need to read, reply, or do something contained in the email. ie: "Taylor - take out the trash" should have "Taylor" in to field. CC: This should contain the people who should skim the email and be aware of what is happening but have no need to reply or do anything. If they don't read it, it shouldn't have any real impact on anything. This is like "FYI-ing" someone in on the conversation and is usually used to keep other team members informed on the ongoing status of the project. ie 1: If the email "Taylor - take out the trash" had my brother CC'd on it, he would know that he didn't have to take out the trash. He doesn't need to reply to the email or do anything. And, if he didn't read it, it wouldn't be the end of the world. ie 2: I write to the Project Manager with new scripts that affect the due date of a project and ask for him to update the schedule accordingly. I CC my team member and the Account Manager so they know that there are new scripts and the dates been pushed back. The Project Manager has to update something (and maybe reply with follow up questions) but my team members and the Account Manager don't have to do anything or reply, just be aware. BCC: People sometimes BBC to include someone secretively on an email. Any address in the BCC field will receive the email but it won't show up so the people in the TO and CC fields won't know about this person. The danger lies if the person BCC'd clicks "reply all" to everyone in the email. ie 1: If the email "Taylor - take out the trash" had my brother BCC'd on it, it would mean my mom was telling me to do something and secretively letting my brother know about it. It has weird and usually bad implications, as you can imagine. Like, is there some inside joke between my mom and brother? Am I the worst child? Etc. If I found out my brother was BCC'd on the email, I would be all sorts of confused and possibly offended, especially if the email was between something expected to be private (ie: "Taylor - you have herpes on your eyeball"). :( :( ie 2: I write a response to the Account Manager that shows my disappointment at some action he took. I BCC my best work buddy George on the email. George and I were smoking a cigarette earlier and laughing about how stupid Account Manager can be. (never do any of this, btw!) George gets a laugh out of the email but accidentally "replies all" with "lol - you show him girl!" Now I'm in a world of shit with Account Manager and my reputation is destroyed. steve brought up one proper use for BCC - when you email everyone at the office or a makeshift list about the Christmas Party. These emails tend to have a ton of people on them and by using the BCC you (1) hide other people's names and email addresses and (2) prevent everyone from replying-all to each other. I get maybe 50-100 emails a day and the VP of my old company would sometimes get 500. So the To vs CC thing is a big deal to help me prioritize my inbox. If you are applying for a job or discussing something with someone who's pretty high up, expect your email to be 1 of 500 emails they are dealing that day with and 1 of 5000 things they are dealing with that day. By using to / cc properly, keeping your emails short and calling out people and actionable items explicitly, it shows you are helping everyone, you are aware you aren't the center of the universe, you respect people's time, and you're not a burden.Is getting the list out of order a huge deal or is it all more of a formality?
What's the difference between the three fields, "to", "cc", and "bcc"?
Lastly, do people really care that much about e-mails that these kinds of concepts are normal hangups?
From their site: This is hysterical... And sad. Poor guys.BTW, our name is MailSTROM, not MailSTORM. It's a play on "maelstrom". On Twitter there's a #mailstorm hashtag that some of our happy but confused customers use to sing our praises, but we do prefer #mailstrom, which matches our name.
So "To" is for people who are actively involved, "CC" is for people who are passively involved, and "BCC" is for when you want to mass mail but protect e-mail addresses. So, this is all new to me. Are there any more basics that you can think of that you think would be important to know?
Not mentioned in all this is that cc originally stood for "carbon copy" and bcc for "blind carbon copy." If you think of life like an episode of Mad Men you'll grasp the original intent. As others have mentioned, you are more likely to wrap yourself around the wheel than save yourself effort with bcc. It's like the floor polisher of online communication: devilishly simple in design, effortless in observation and the quickest way to break a limb and destroy the office when wielded by the untrained.
I get over 500 emails a day easily so most of are insanely ideological about email rules and etiquette. I wouldn't expect someone outside of the company to follow rules perfectly but it makes things easier if you do. insom's reply mostly covers it I just wanted to add many people organize their email by "rules". If an email is "to" me it goes in a special folder and for some people even plays a sound. "to" is much more likely to be seen then "cc".
I disagree with tng. I don't think anyone cares. I have sent workplace questions to admin assistants at all hours and on weekends and most of them reply at all hours and on weekends. Then we chat about why we're crazy enough to be working at all hours and on weekends. A half day off somewhere might mean that someone is catching up between midnight and 5:00 a.m. or on a weekend. Also, times on email might not indicate when it was written and sent. For example, even on hubski there have been weird delays. I'd notice a shout out to me, but might not receive the notification for a day. For example, I still have not received a notification for this shout out from steve. I don't know why. Remember, though, when you write an email at 2:00 a.m. it might not be in the best shape. It might be good to proofread it and send it in the morning, just so you are looking at it fresh. - that is, if it is a new cover letter. Edit: I see that the wise and brilliant insomniasexx made this point already.
If it's a job where one can reasonably assume that applicants are going to be coming from multiple time zones it's a non-issue. But here, let me emphasize something: All this shit falls to the wayside quickly. The tricky part about hiring is that you've got to get past the gatekeeper who doesn't want to deal with your ass and who is looking for any excuse to shitcan your attempt to complicate her life. As soon as you actually have the person you'd be working for on the line, it's much less about kabuki bullshit and much more about your skills and affinity.
I think at that point it's safe to say no one's going to notice / care and time zones absolve all. Just don't call the west coast at 9am EST. We aren't awake yet.
Take me off the consult/shoutout list. I'm not a reliable witness of anything because I'm usually UP sending email at 2:00 a.m.1) You're in academia.
"in" is a bit strong. I linger at the fringes... as you will see when we HAVE OUR BIG AWESOME SEATTLE MEET-UP!!!2) You're not applying for a job.
I apply for many things, often jobs... doing corporate stuff too, but there is usually zero competition for the things I'm applying for. So anything I say is probably irrelevant to my friend rd95. rd - listen to Americans who have some knowledge about these things.
I think the key difference between whether or not to send an email at 2am lies in how well you know the person and whether or not their judgement of your sleep cycle has a potentially negative impact on you. I wouldn't, and don't, judge 99% of people for emailing me at 2am. It does usually end with funny and bonding conversations about our weird hours. However, if someone I've never spoken to before applies for a 9-5 job emails me at 3am, I may be concerned about their ability to arrive at work on time, etc.
Some people won't notice. Some people will. But even then - email is a fickle bitch. There are delays, server errors, etc. An email you send me RIGHT NOW may not get to me until 2am. I wouldn't judge... unless maybe EVERY correspondence I have with you rolled in at 2am. And if you're worried about the time - you could build and craft your messages and then just send them in the morning when you get up. Drafts are your friends.
I really like this idea of writing things out and sending them early in the morning, especially as lil has mentioned I might find things that need fixing. I've been working really hard to write cover letters as best as possible, but seeing as how I've applied for so many different kinds of jobs, I don't really have any mental template that fits anything. What about thenewgreen's suggestion? Is that too late? From my personal social (though non-business) experience, any communication after dinner that is unplanned is unwelcome and rude. I don't know if that applies to e-mails or not.
In my world it depends on the medium. Scheduling meetings or sending bang mails (mails market as important) after work hours is very rude and there better be a real emergency. Sending non time sensitive mails after work hours is totally normal. From my personal social (though non-business) experience, any communication after dinner that is unplanned is unwelcome and rude.
So context is key. Man, between this and what insomniasexx is posting, I think I need to write down a list of rules.
People choose to open an email. People choose to answer or glance at a phone: C'mon everyone, tell me: are you increasingly in social encounters where people glance at their phone and say, "not important" or "I'll get to it later." Subject line on email should be 100% clear: Application for Head Hunting Job #69 or whatever.
Valid question. I never sent emails after midnight. Between 10pm and midnight looks good imo, 2am looks unhealthy. Good luck!
insom and lil have already said what I would but better. I'll just add - my friend and I have an email writing team. Whenever we need to call someone an asshole, ask someone a favor, ect, we work on drafts and proofread for each other. Having a buddy to proofread and check for tone is huge. If you have a friend you can enlist you can send out your stuff for review at 2:00am you can have a reply by the next afternoon when your brain is more awake and send it then.
This. Don't write emails angry (unless you are doing it solely for therapeutic purposes and will be immediately deleting it) and try to have at least one person look over important or emotional emails. My coworker and I did this for each other constantly. Then we were both emotionally invested in a shit storm and had no clue what to do. We had gotten so good at not writing an email angry / without being rewritten more objectively that we pretty much forced ourselves to ignore it for a full day and approach fresh the next day. We also had to stealthily avoid in-person contact with the other two guys in the office as well. I never realized how fucked and silly offices and jobs in general are.Whenever we need to call someone an asshole, ask someone a favor, ect, we work on drafts and proofread for each other.
We have project managers whose job is mostly to be a filter. They take emails from clients, bounce them back until they make some kind of sense, pass them along with color commentary and pictures of cats, and then rephrase our replies with less nerdrage and mockery. They are the only people with "manager" in their job title I like. It'd take me all day to figure out how to word some things gently before we got them. Now I can say what comes to mind when people email thousands of names and social security numbers in the clear, and not waste most of a day trying to figure out how to say "don't do the stupid and irresponsible thing" without using synonyms of "stupid" or "irresponsible."
Here's an angle that nobody else has considered: Do any reasonable thing to make yourself stand apart from the rest of the crowd. I was unemployed basically all of 2015. The job market in Seattle is utterly INSANE right now, so every single position I was applying for (mostly writing jobs) had more than a hundred applicants. Some 10x that many. Now think of the person processing these requests... these individuals quickly all merge into one incomprehensible mass. There are no individual monkeys any more... there is just a big group of clamoring, screeching, noisy, annoyances. So when my resume came in at 3:am, it stood out. I know this because several interviewers commented on it. "Wow. 3:AM! What were you doing awake then?" And BAM! this is where I am now in a conversation with the person. They are interested in me. They have asked a non-standard question, and I now have the floor, and a chance to impress them with my response. So I say, "3:AM? Wow. Oh yeah! I was working on the scripts for season 1 of a TV series a friend of mine and I are writing on the founding of Seattle. Kind of a "Deadwood in the PNW" thing. I'd really nailed this one scene, and was editing it down late into the night." Suddenly I am now a monkey with a name, and a hat, and a personality... not one of the screeching horde. So there are ways to leverage these things in your favor. (Note: if you are not familiar with the Monkeysphere, it's a fun idea based around Dunbar's Number.)
You know. I might have to mull over that. My resume was completely redone from top to bottom to help it stand out more, and when at first I wasn't getting any interviews, I finally got two in as many weeks. Though, I do have to admit that I don't know if "guy who is up at 2 in the morning" is an image I want to put out, for fear that it'll make me look either like a social deviant on one extreme or a complete work-a-holic on the other.