I've been brought up in a religious family with deep beliefs in God and the 10 commandments. In short my life didn't revolve around following them nor worshipping them. Now am 19 years old and my brain is exploding by the amount of new information I have come across, sciences that reject the thought of God's creation of us, nor any history for that matter. When I was kid I was brainwashed but have I really?
My real question is are there any individuals who have came across the same experience and do you still believe that there is someone who will greet us after your death? Do you still talk to God and ask for his help even though the belief is fading away?
I had a similar experience. I was raised in a Conservative/Fundamentalist Christian environment. Sometime shortly after undergrad, I realised I didn't believe those things anymore, and how many were logically indefensible. I now identify as a Progressive Christian, sometimes leaning toward Deism. I believe in God, as a fact, from philosophical arguments. Primarily First Cause and the Ontological Argument (maths minor here). Logically demonstrating Jesus is God is a bit harder, but, I think he was about as good as any man who lived, and the absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, so, eh. Theologically, I'm at a point where I'm not sure it matters. One of my favorite quotes is a paraphrase of Marcus Aurelius, I have a lot of friends who outright rejected Theism when confronted with the indefensible. Which I understand, but don't agree with. I think that rejection is often a continuation of the black-and-white philosophy of Fundamentalism and Conservatism. When faced with incontrovertible facts against black, it's easy to flip to white, rather than recognising it's not "black" which is wrong, so much as the dualistic worldview itself. Again, I lean toward Deism. I'd like to believe in an afterlife, but I don't think it would be the horror many people think if there isn't. Time doesn't cease to exist after it happens, if that makes any sense. As Mark Twain said, "I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it." Yes. Though I wouldn't say my belief is fading away. I'd rather say I deconstructed my faith and rejected the indefensible, and am now rebuilding it. I'd add, I think a great many people, especially Fundamentalists, mistake God for themselves. That is, "God" is whatever they want and whatever supports them. That may mean rationalising their selfishness, or it may mean condemning vices they dislike in themselves. But regardless, it's self-worship, and bad. It's something I actively think about and try to avoid in myself. And also, just because many people worship themselves and call it God, doesn't mean a real, impartial, omnipotent God doesn't exist. I'd also add, that I think "good" and "evil" are immature misconceptions. People aren't "evil", they're broken. The conservative theology of eternal damnation is childish. The philosophy of punishment because people "deserve it" is childish. People need helped, and fixed, not "punished" because they're "bad". Children think "bad actions are punished"; adults realise "bad actions are given negative reinforcement to teach good behavior". The purpose of all pain is learning, not some warped concept of justice. Suffering is bad. It takes a sick or childish mind to think otherwise. You might be interested in Fowler's theory of Stages of Faith. Marcus Aurelius' Meditations is also a fantastic read, but especially for anyone caught between fanaticism and atheism. It doesn't have answers, so much as advice for living well, and honest, rational thought.Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
do you still believe that there is someone who will greet us after your death?
Do you still talk to God and ask for his help even though the belief is fading away?
Hubski (and the internet in general) can be a tough place to hang out and maintain your faith. Yep. I firmly do. What does it hurt? Even in my darkest hours of questioning and doubt - I ask... maybe even especially in times of doubt - I pray. I figure if there's a God - he (or she or it or them depending on your belief structure) wants us to figure that out and act accordingly. I was fortunate to be raised in a religious home that was also a scientific home. My experiences as the son of a devout father who also happens to be a an anthropologist/archaeologist helped me to figure out early on that science and religion need not be mutually exclusive. Those people on either "side" of the debate who insist their's is the only way to think, do more harm than good. I'm still a practicing member of a church. I still have a great deal of faith in God. I also have a great deal of faith in Science. You can have both. In the end - faith, religion - it's all a choice. I think you can be happy on any part of the faith spectrum. It's up to each of us to figure out our relationship with deity, wrestle with it a bit, and live in such a way that honors that and helps other people.do you still believe that there is someone who will greet us after your death?
Do you still talk to God and ask for his help even though the belief is fading away?
I was brought up as a Lutheran, going to private Lutheran schools for 12 years (Grade 1-12). At one point I was interested in being a pastor; I used to love reading the bible and learning about god and all that. I took all sorts of religious classes I didn't have to, I enjoyed it a lot. And in 12th grade I took a "Christian Apologetics" class; that is, a class where they tried to teach us youngsters to defend our beliefs against people who would challenge them. It talked about archaeological and historical evidence for a while, but the core of the class ended up being "The bible says it's true and we believe the bible 100% so that's why it's true." Of course, I thought that was a terrible argument, and I went online to do my own research so I could "properly" defend my faith using more historical and "scientific" evidence and other tangible things besides "The bible says it is true so it must be true". And that's when I came to the realization that I was kind of in a bubble surrounded by people who never questioned the bible, and I began reading stuff online refuting basically every single thing I was ever taught about why we believe the bible is true. Didn't take long after that for me to realize there was no real reason for me to believe it other than the fact that it was what I was taught to believe. So I stopped. There's not much more to it than that though, at this point I'm pretty much atheist I guess, though I like to have my own particular world view (vaguely related to shamanism-type stuff, but it's sort of a fun idea rather than a belief I shape myself based on). But it's interesting to see this "bubble" of my friends/family who are still Christian and how they seem unable to see it from my view, and unconditionally believe/preach stuff like Creationism and the like, that directly contradicts scientific knowledge/etc.
I very much identify with this. Learning about the esoterica of various mystical traditions is kinda fun in and of itself.I like to have my own particular world view (vaguely related to shamanism-type stuff, but it's sort of a fun idea rather than a belief I shape myself based on)
Yep, for sure. I don't know if I truly "believe" in any of it but it's a fun "what if?" sort of thing. It's sort of an exercise in imagination and creativity, as well. I'm writing a roguelike with lore vaguely based on the idea of alternate planes/realms/etc, and while roguelikes aren't known for their heavy story it's still helped give me inspiration for coming up with the lore.
Worth mentioning: The Hubski podcast on Spirituality vs. Religion
So, my thoughts about this are thus: Some people need faith in their lives to live a fulfilling and whole life. Some people don't need that, or find that fulfillment in other places. Whatever gets you through the night, to quote the song, is the most important thing. I was not raised in faith, and when I tried organized religion, i found my morals did not jive with the morality therein. I also don't see the evidence for a higher power or afterlife. Where I live, in Canada, church doesn't hold the sway it once did even 50 years ago, and most people I know personally are either not a person of faith, or don't attend an organized church on the regular - it's just not part of our culture at this point. There are a couple of broad realities that one needs to confront when they are a person of faith living in and navigating our modern world: 1.) Just because you are a person of faith does not mean that you have to deny the validity of scientific ideas. Science and faith have intermingled successfully for hundreds of years. Indeed, the Catholic church was a huge element in the scientific world via the Jesuits (including the current pope). 2.) There are millions of people in the world who are of a different faith than you, or of no faith. They are, as a whole, frankly uninterested in what you believe and just want to go about their daily business. Proselytism is the second worst thing about people of extreme faith. 3.) there are lots of details of faiths that do not jive with a secular society. Christianity, for example: LGBT discrimination, in particular, is included in some of the more archaic parts of the bible along with slavery, women being possessions, not wearing clothing of mixed fabrics, not trimming beards, etc. The things to remember are that these are not (and frankly never were) core tenets of the faith. They are an extant example of what life was like when the bible was being written, translated, and condensed. Religions of all kinds are, at a fundamental level, guidelines for life. How one should treat themselves, treat others, and treat the environment around them. I don't think this is what you wanted, but that's the thoughts I had when reading your post.
Complete tangent, but that reminds me of Ruth Bader Ginsburg's awesome rebuttal, during the Obergefell v Hodges case last year, when the US Supreme Court ruled gay marriage discrimination unconstitutional. The prosecutor argued the government didn't have the right to redefine marriage. Ginsburg pointed out they already have:for example: LGBT discrimination
along with slavery, women being possessions
Marriage today is not what it was under the common law tradition, under the civil law tradition. Marriage was a relationship of a dominant male to a subordinate female. That ended as a result of this Court's decision in 1982 when Louisiana's Head and Master Rule was struck down. And no State was allowed to have such a [] marriage anymore. Would that be a choice that a State should be allowed to have? To cling to marriage the way it once was?
and THAT is why I have The Notorious RBG on my audio book list. It's up next, in fact.
those people are usually either misinformed, or "biblical literalists". Or, y'know, prejudiced (of course they'd never admit it). I hope they don't drive or use satellites, because those things don't work without modern science.
Hey, I don't want to dog on you or anything, but cherry picking extreme examples to try and make a point is a pretty unhealthy way to discuss an issue that is historically speaking extremely complexed and nuanced, especially when extremes can be found on both ends of the faith spectrum. People of faith, of any type, deserve a fair shake. After all we really are all in this together and there is a huge difference between condemning behavior we see as unhealthy and painting people in an unfair light at best and dehumanizing them at worse. I'm not saying that's what you're intentionally doing, but it can easily come across that way. Historically speaking, the world of science and mathematics has benefited immensely from people of all faiths and walks of life and we owe a lot to them. On a similar note, there are rational men and women of faith today and they have a right to be appreciated and accepted just like everyone else. Just to kind of balance out the cherry picking, I'll leave these here . . . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_scientists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_scientists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christians_in_science_and_technology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_scientists_and_philosophers
I would never make the claim that religious people as a class are bad. I will make the claim that in the modern day, the most active and popular religions often cause great harm to believers and non believers alike, and often even so called 'moderates' can be active participants in perpetuating that harm. I'll cite the example of Catholic Bishops protecting pedophile priests, and allowing them to continue to prey on the young for decades. I can cite more extreme examples and I'm going to choose not to. I'm all in favor of laying everything, good and bad about religion out in the open. I would also make a distinction between public, organized religion, and personal pursuits of spirituality or the search for meaning. Also, 'Unhealthy' is a very tame term for the kinds of awful things people do in the name of their god.
I spent a long time really pissed about religion in general, and really vocal about it, too. I don't regret that; I came by it honestly, and I'll bet you did too. There's a joke Aleister Crowley told I saw quoted by Alan Moore somewhere that convinced me to be more cautious about when I spoke up If an imaginary mongoose is what someone needs, I don't think it's fair to fault them. Of course some religions give people imaginary snakes instead, and those deserve your anger, but it's not obvious which is which from the outside. Better to let it go until it's being inflicted on people who didn't opt in.There is the story of the American in the train who saw another American carrying a basket of unusual shape. His curiosity mastered him, and he leant across and said: "Say, stranger, what you got in that bag?" The other, lantern-jawed and taciturn, replied: "mongoose". The first man was rather baffled, as he had never heard of a mongoose. After a pause he pursued, at the risk of a rebuff: "But say, what is a Mongoose?" "Mongoose eats snakes", replied the other. This was another poser, but he pursued: "What in hell do you want a Mongoose for?" "Well, you see", said the second man (in a confidential whisper) "my brother sees snakes". The first man was more puzzled than ever; but after a long think, he continued rather pathetically: "But say, them ain't real snakes". "Sure", said the man with the basket, "but this Mongoose ain't real either".
So, you mean, constantly and globally. I could pull up a laundry list of examples. Pedo-priests. Daesh. Abstinence-only sex education that is one of the best predictors of teen pregnancy. The religious indoctrination of children before they are even able to read or form coherent thoughts that occurs worldwide.Better to let it go until it's being inflicted on people who didn't opt in.
To be fair, people will do awful things when the mood strikes them and will find many different reasons to justify them. Religion, for a lot of people, is a very touchy subject. I find using terms that are less emotionally charged, such as "unhealthy," helps to keep conversations civil and respectful. Trust me, there's a lot of things that I've seen and learn that frustrate me just as much as they frustrate you. I'd never claim that you would either, to be honest. Just that, when it comes to discussing religion, it's important to chose our words carefully. Religion is something that permeates through our worlds history so broadly and so deeply, that the barriers that it has created between many people are so tall and so strong, it's much, much easier to add another brick into the wall than it is to take one out. I see where you're coming from. I do. I'd wager though, that in the modern day, with people who are more educated, more prosperous, and more able to share and receive information, that the ill influences of religion are steadily receding. Thanks to the internet and international news for example, the Catholic church is no longer able to sweep things under the rug anywhere near as easily as even fifty years ago. As an aside, and I'm sure you know this, when it comes to religious organizations (especially ones as massive as the Catholic Church), it's important to understand that there is a huge difference between the members of any said organization and the organization itself. There's give and take of course, because like I'm sure you would, I sometimes question the rationality of anyone being an active member of an organization that they don't trust and/or agree with. Martin Luther certainly had his grievances and he would not keep quiet about them and look how he changed the world as a result. I think we're in agreement.'Unhealthy' is a very tame term for the kinds of awful things people do in the name of their god.
I would never make the claim that religious people as a class are bad.
I will make the claim that in the modern day, the most active and popular religions often cause great harm to believers and non believers alike, and often even so called 'moderates' can be active participants in perpetuating that harm. I'll cite the example of Catholic Bishops protecting pedophile priests, and allowing them to continue to prey on the young for decades. I can cite more extreme examples and I'm going to choose not to.
I'm all in favor of laying everything, good and bad about religion out in the open. I would also make a distinction between public, organized religion, and personal pursuits of spirituality or the search for meaning.
I was born Catholic and confirmed Methodist. I wanted and tried really hard to believe. If there were a switch I could flip to make it so, I would definitely consider it. There had always been some sort of doubt in my mind, but I always pushed it back and maintained the illusion of the genuine believer. I would parrot and mime and try to convince the community around me that I believed just as much as they did, thinking that if I could convince them I could convince myself. I remember exactly where I was and what I was doing when I started having doubts. I remember being in physical pain at the thought of God not existing. My mind was racing, heart pounding, and no one I felt comfortable talking about the possibility of God not existing with. Once I started to calm down, I had the thought that if God doesn't exist than he never existed and I'm not really losing anything. Writing it down now, it seems pretty invalidating to my past religious experiences and probably isn't sound logic, but it helped me at the time. From time to time, especially when things turn south, I find myself wishing I had something to believe in. However, I've found that I'm no longer comfortable with the idea of an all-powerful, authoritarian god. I've looked into a number of other religions to try and find something that I mesh with. In the end I've settled on something that is my own. I believe in a connectedness of all living beings in that we're all sharing the experience of life. I think that the 'spirit' lies in the consciousness, as because of that the consciousness is something to be explored with techniques like meditation and mindfulness. As far as literal spirits go though, I have trouble accepting them. This was a bit of a ramble, I hope there's something useful in here that can help you out. If nothing else, it was at least good for me to type out! I hope you find your truth.
Is it? A house divided... I once had a pastor tell me that there are many paths to God, she said that the key was to "choose one." I think this is a good interpretation of this commandment.
Is it? A house divided... I once had a pastor tell me that there are many paths to God, she said that the key was to "choose one." I think this is a good interpretation of this commandment.
My spin on that is "I read the Ten Commandments once and saw I was already doing them not out fear but out of respect for those around me."
I was raised in a deeply religious household as well, and I truly believed, until I was a young teen. When I lost my faith, I didn't really think about it deeply, for a long time. I called myself an agnostic for a few years. I am pretty old now (in my fifties) and for quite a while I've been an atheist instead of an agnostic; just being honest with myself. I have no reason to think there's a deity or an afterlife, and it really doesn't bother me. Self-delusion would be worse, in my eyes.
I've had both a similar experience and pretty much the exact opposite experience so far. I grew up going to church with my mom, but my dad would stay home. Eventually, once I was old enough to actually stay home alone if my dad had to do something Sunday morning, I could choose if I wanted to go or not. For a long time I kept going, but at the same time, I was starting to question my beliefs. By the time I was 12, I had rejected the beliefs of the church, but I continued to attend because I really enjoyed the social and ritualistic aspects, as my maturation lead to more chaos in my life. For a while in my early teens, I looked around hard for something else to believe in. I probably changed my professed religion every two weeks. I wasn't looking for the religion that worked the best in regards to contradictions, logic, science, and what not, but rather just trying to find something close to world-view. Of course though, I'd read about some cool belief of some minor religion, think it was cool, then "claim" that belief and religion for a bit, then find another one. It was a very interesting thing to do, learning about all sorts of different religions, but it also was deeply unsatisfying. During period throughout the search, I'd end up returning to Christianity, go to church for a while, then stop again. I think what finally fully stopped my religious trend was that I just couldn't manage to put in the time I needed to in order to get the ritualistic comfort I sought from religion. And so, without really any regard to beliefs, I became nonreligious. Recently though, I've felt my life sort of start decaying. I've lost a lot of control over new aspects of my life, and it's been rather scary. I started praying again, more as a way to force myself to acknowledge my mistakes, sins and issues, as long as look for ways to fix them. It worked. I'm praying rather regularly now, and I might start the conversion process to Orthodox Christianity, because of the emphasis on prayer there. I don't know what I believe about God. I'm not sure I want to know what I belive, much less try to find the actual truth there. I don't care if someone will meet me after death—that's in another life, and this one's such a mess I need to just focus on it. Even without the belief though, I can talk to God and ask for His help. Sometimes, through the clarity I gain from the practice, I even get His help. Maybe He's helping me in other ways too. Looking back, I wish I had better seperated my beliefs and my religion. I tried hard to be a spiritual person, but I'm not. I am, I think, a ritualistic person, and therefore religion appeals to me. I can lead a pretty chaotic life, and so having something to fall back on, even if it's just the Lord's Prayer before bed, that I feel a connection to and which helps give me some order is really welcome.
I got lucky in that I was raised in the Reform tradition of Judaism so there wasn't really a whole lot of God talk. We focused more on life here rather than the hereafter and Judaism doesn't really have a conclusive answer on the afterlife decision anyway. So I sort of went along with the God part and had rabbinic school as a backup option throughout high school and have sort of distanced myself from it since then. My parents don't like to talk about it much, but I highly doubt that my dad believes in God (mom is a Jewish convert from Catholicism and has expressed extreme discomfort when I've even hinted at agnosticism so that's a whole other story). To answer your questions, I never really talked to God at all and always assumed everyone else was faking it too. Regarding the afterlife, I look at it as an adventure either way and I'd rather not know what happens next. So in my perspective, faith is for shaping your behavior in the here and now and making this time we have as fulfilling as possible. Some people use it that way, others don't need it as a guideline.
Old thread is old, but I don't want to work right now so will give a couple thoughts. I really think all your questions come down to putting human limits and frameworks around something that doesn't really fit with any of them. This is something that I think we get far too preoccupied by, and really amounts to arguing about the color of the inside of a Klein bottle. For example, I don't believe that we vanish into nothingness when our physical bodies die, only because I don't believe those bodies to be us. But I also don't believe that our human neurological systems can comprehend what's next in any meaningful way. Some traditions refer to death as a "homecoming," which I kind of like, although I don't assume I use the word in the same sense (then again maybe I do). But really we have to work with the extent to which the Divine impacts our current world. I think a lot of that takes the form of information (but not in the pseudo-scientific sense). I don't believe that God directly intervenes in a physical way into our universe. But I do think that we're shown what's right for us if we listen. This brings its own challenges, of course, but I don't think we ever run out of chances to come back to the right path. Of course, the right path doesn't need to be religious. But someone can act in a Godly way without believing in God (and of course we all know plenty of examples of the religious doing un-Godly things). Related to this, I think we're too quick to draw distinctions between the physical and "not," whether you want to call that ethereal, divine, or whatever. I think seeing things as two different worlds with some kind of barrier is the wrong way to go. Just as there's no distinction between "religion time" and "the rest of the day," I don't think we're going around in one ring or another. As Khalil Gibran said: And that which is neither deed nor reflection, but a wonder and a surprise ever springing in the soul, even while the hands hew the stone or tend the loom? Who can separate his faith from his actions, or his belief from his occupations? Who can spread his hours before him, saying, "This for God and this for myself; This for my soul, and this other for my body?" Is not religion all deeds and all reflection,
This is an awesome topic to discuss. I was raised a Catholic, and confirmed Catholic as well. To sort of give an example of the strictness of my upbringing I knew most if not all Catholic prayers before I knew much of anything else. I went through phases with my religion, and my faith. I think the two are different in a lot of ways. When I was younger I didn't really understand any of it, but when I grew up I took on a more fanatic role. I was entering my formative stages, and here I was being bombarded by fear, but also this passion that I wouldn't understand until years later. As I grew up, and as I met new people (especially in college) I began to question the one thing that had remained a constant from the day I was conscious enough to realize it. This began the dissolution of my religion and my faith. Of course that wasn't the right path for me. I ended up discovering a path void of religion, but deep in faith. I asked myself this a lot especially during the earlier times in my life. I think the focus has always been far too honed in on this ideal that at the end of it all we will sit in front of our creator, and answer for the lives we lived. It creates this endless standard of living as if our lives are under a microscope, and every decision bad or good is a tally in one column or another. The way that I looked at when gauging decisions in my life is: If I was never expecting to face anyone. If when I died no one was there why do I feel compelled to help this person? To love this person? To forgive this person? Do I need the fear that judgement is always around the corner to be accepting, to be caring, to be understanding? I didn't think so. I think my answer to this question is does it particularly matter? Yes. I don't like to think that my belief has faded in anyway. I like to believe that my faith and understanding of God has just changed. Instead of God being a "him" or an all powerful divinity up high, I diffused God into everything I did, every person I spoke to, every love I held. God was no longer this judge, he became a bridge, one in which I used to connect myself to everyone around me. I think faith, and religion are very separate in the way they are devised. While you may find organized religion and its doctrine insufficient, you may find your faith to be far deeper.do you still believe that there is someone who will greet us after your death?
Do you still talk to God and ask for his help even though the belief is fading away?
Paulie, Ultimately faith is a special bond you have with yourself and your own values. That is my opinion. The ten commandments are incredibly valuable principles to live by, but how you value them is of utmost importance. The moment when someone begins to tell you how your life should be held is, in my humble opinion, a complete deviation of the basic principles of religion. A strong guide of faith, in my opinion, is as much a necessity for our over-developed brains, as is any other physical manifestation in which we have sought to develop to ensure the survival of our species. If you want to read a book on faith, from the perspective of a scientist (psychologist) - read "Man's Search for Meaning" by Victor Frankl. It is a dark book, but has been referenced as one of the greatest modern testaments to faith the world has, (may ever imho) see. It's also a very short book (= Coming from someone who thinks deeply, and has gone to purgatory and back within my head over such topics... I will reference the 85 year old Marine in which I spent a summer working with: If you aren't bothering me, you aren't hurting me, then you aren't my problem, and we can live in peace - But don't you tread on me or my values! Coming from the Beatles, "Speaking words of wisdom, let it be.." Coming from the sorority girls I lived with, "just smile, and wave." I talk to my grandfather, who I never met. He was a raging alcoholic, and a cripple. But, before the car wreck, and before the co-dependent manifestations, he was an all-american football player, and a heavyweight boxing champion for the Marines. I hold myself not to make the same mistakes he made in his lifetime, and use his spiritual presence, or his genetic imprint, as a guide for me when times are tough. Hope this may help you form a better understanding for yourself. If not... see Beatles quote above.
Not to steer you away from Hubski but you might find these guys very much worth conversing with.
And don't forget to local, if miniscule, equivalent of #talkreligion. I still haven't talked to the churches, and I'm not sure I will anytime soon, but my views on the subject have changed since. I realized that I've been not just aggressive in my anti-religious pursuits but zealous - and, like for every belief we're aggressive about asserting, there must be a reason for that. Right now, my goal is to figure out why I feel what I feel about religion, which isn't a priority, so I can't promise anything any time soon, including discussion.